Popeye
Contributor
Wrong, false and incorrect
Hardly.
>Popeye,
>>"It seems your first sentence is contradictory with your last paragraph."
>You assume too much.
Actually, I assumed nothing. I simply read what you spelled out in black and white. It was snipped in the reply, however.
You first wrote:
>>>"I never encourage solo diving." Then:
>>>"I'll dive with practically anyone, but I do so knowing I'm increasing my risk. I figure my risk is lowest when I dive with some specific buddies I know very well, next lowest when I'm alone and highest when I dive with most of the divers I run into on boats around the world."
To which I replied :"It seems your first sentence is contradictory with your last paragraph. You rate solo diving as safer than diving with -most- unknown divers.That certainly indicates it as a viable option."
It shows that you assess a specific need for solo diving, and you believe it less risky than diving with an unknown buddy, which the vast majority of us do.
>Most divers shouldn't ever dive solo. Solo diving requires a great deal of experience and a very high skill level.
Uh, why? Everybody seems to be getting by without the expert tutelage.
>There are divers who dive solo every day, but it's not for everyone. Even a diver with the skills and experience is at greater risk diving solo in the event of unexpected medical problems such as a heart attack or an allergic reaction to a bristle worm sting.
And this happens how often? Well, it doesn't happen often. While a diver may be at "greater risk", as you say, the increase in risk certainly isn't even quantifiable.
>A medical problem is the mostly situation that would cause me problems while diving. Chances of that happening are small. For most divers, the most likely situation that will cause them problems is screwing up. In diving with an unfamiliar buddy, the the mostly situation that would cause me problems is my buddy screwing up (it's happened many, many times). The changes of this being something with which I cannot effectively deal are slim, but the chance does exist that as a result I will be injured or killed. While this chance exists for other divers as well, the chances are not as likely as them screwing up while diving solo.
Then how do you account for the poll stating 53% of divers solo dive? That's hundreds of thousands of dives a year. Don't you think we'd see some sort of injury and fatality trend? Your point is correct, the weight you place on it absurd. It's part of the risk that a solo diver would accept. The same type of risk he assumes by diving with an unknown buddy.
>Don't assume and think things out.
I did, actually.
I've discussed my reasoning at great length. People on your side of the argument have only one reccuring theme: "I can solo dive because of my extreme skills, and the peasants, commoners and unwashed masses cannot, because of their incompetence." It's a pretty arrogant and condescending attitude. Especially the grossly arrogant implication that the majority of divers are too stupid to think for themselves. That side has offered no tangible evidence of any significantly increased danger in solo diving.
>>"I'm a 3 day grad, and there are tens of thousands out there.
>>Assuming a reasonable base proficiency at diving, what do you think a diver would have to learn to dive solo?"
>I would start with everything that was left out of your 3 day class. Those tens of thousands scare me when I see them on charter boats. More evidence of incompetent instruction.
Don't assume, think things out.
You have no idea what my three day class entailed, or if -anything- was left out. I was taught from the same book, and passed the same test, as anyone else. My first several hundred dives were open ocean drift dives. I was doing IANTD DM, and working as a dive professional, 90 days after certification. This doesn't imply a lack of basic skills. Maybe your lack of success with the short course is a reflection on your instructing abilities. There's certainly no other basis for your opinion, as evidenced by death and injury statistics.
Funny thing about your charter boat anecdote. In another forum, a "doom diver"* from West Palm was sharing with us how OOAs were a daily occurrence because of the lack of OW standards. I crewed a boat on from the same dock as his, and never saw an OOA in over 400+ dives.
Guess it's just perspective, or maybe the company you keep.
>>"What else would one need?"
>You'll have to go elsewhere (SDI?) for your solo course. I don't teach it, nor do I believe it should be taught. If you are capable of diving solo you are aware of it and certainly don't need some instructor with less experience than you to tell you so. If you aren't capable of diving solo, no amount of instruction will prepare you for it. If you aren't sure, you aren't ready.
As previously noted, I've already offered this sentiment. As far as the training goes, that comment could cover the bulk of scuba training as well. Any instruction is better than no instruction, especially with the well recognized need.
And I have no need for the course, thank you. It's impressive how many people criticize this course, but have no alternative.
Dave safe.
*A "Doom Diver" is the guy that girds his loins for the life risking and treacherous task of plumbing the swarthy and unforgiving depths, escaping the clutches fo the grimreaper once again (while the rest of us jump in, go diving and have fun). There's several doom divers here.
Hardly.
>Popeye,
>>"It seems your first sentence is contradictory with your last paragraph."
>You assume too much.
Actually, I assumed nothing. I simply read what you spelled out in black and white. It was snipped in the reply, however.
You first wrote:
>>>"I never encourage solo diving." Then:
>>>"I'll dive with practically anyone, but I do so knowing I'm increasing my risk. I figure my risk is lowest when I dive with some specific buddies I know very well, next lowest when I'm alone and highest when I dive with most of the divers I run into on boats around the world."
To which I replied :"It seems your first sentence is contradictory with your last paragraph. You rate solo diving as safer than diving with -most- unknown divers.That certainly indicates it as a viable option."
It shows that you assess a specific need for solo diving, and you believe it less risky than diving with an unknown buddy, which the vast majority of us do.
>Most divers shouldn't ever dive solo. Solo diving requires a great deal of experience and a very high skill level.
Uh, why? Everybody seems to be getting by without the expert tutelage.
>There are divers who dive solo every day, but it's not for everyone. Even a diver with the skills and experience is at greater risk diving solo in the event of unexpected medical problems such as a heart attack or an allergic reaction to a bristle worm sting.
And this happens how often? Well, it doesn't happen often. While a diver may be at "greater risk", as you say, the increase in risk certainly isn't even quantifiable.
>A medical problem is the mostly situation that would cause me problems while diving. Chances of that happening are small. For most divers, the most likely situation that will cause them problems is screwing up. In diving with an unfamiliar buddy, the the mostly situation that would cause me problems is my buddy screwing up (it's happened many, many times). The changes of this being something with which I cannot effectively deal are slim, but the chance does exist that as a result I will be injured or killed. While this chance exists for other divers as well, the chances are not as likely as them screwing up while diving solo.
Then how do you account for the poll stating 53% of divers solo dive? That's hundreds of thousands of dives a year. Don't you think we'd see some sort of injury and fatality trend? Your point is correct, the weight you place on it absurd. It's part of the risk that a solo diver would accept. The same type of risk he assumes by diving with an unknown buddy.
>Don't assume and think things out.
I did, actually.
I've discussed my reasoning at great length. People on your side of the argument have only one reccuring theme: "I can solo dive because of my extreme skills, and the peasants, commoners and unwashed masses cannot, because of their incompetence." It's a pretty arrogant and condescending attitude. Especially the grossly arrogant implication that the majority of divers are too stupid to think for themselves. That side has offered no tangible evidence of any significantly increased danger in solo diving.
>>"I'm a 3 day grad, and there are tens of thousands out there.
>>Assuming a reasonable base proficiency at diving, what do you think a diver would have to learn to dive solo?"
>I would start with everything that was left out of your 3 day class. Those tens of thousands scare me when I see them on charter boats. More evidence of incompetent instruction.
Don't assume, think things out.
You have no idea what my three day class entailed, or if -anything- was left out. I was taught from the same book, and passed the same test, as anyone else. My first several hundred dives were open ocean drift dives. I was doing IANTD DM, and working as a dive professional, 90 days after certification. This doesn't imply a lack of basic skills. Maybe your lack of success with the short course is a reflection on your instructing abilities. There's certainly no other basis for your opinion, as evidenced by death and injury statistics.
Funny thing about your charter boat anecdote. In another forum, a "doom diver"* from West Palm was sharing with us how OOAs were a daily occurrence because of the lack of OW standards. I crewed a boat on from the same dock as his, and never saw an OOA in over 400+ dives.
Guess it's just perspective, or maybe the company you keep.
>>"What else would one need?"
>You'll have to go elsewhere (SDI?) for your solo course. I don't teach it, nor do I believe it should be taught. If you are capable of diving solo you are aware of it and certainly don't need some instructor with less experience than you to tell you so. If you aren't capable of diving solo, no amount of instruction will prepare you for it. If you aren't sure, you aren't ready.
As previously noted, I've already offered this sentiment. As far as the training goes, that comment could cover the bulk of scuba training as well. Any instruction is better than no instruction, especially with the well recognized need.
And I have no need for the course, thank you. It's impressive how many people criticize this course, but have no alternative.
Dave safe.
*A "Doom Diver" is the guy that girds his loins for the life risking and treacherous task of plumbing the swarthy and unforgiving depths, escaping the clutches fo the grimreaper once again (while the rest of us jump in, go diving and have fun). There's several doom divers here.
