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I think you have identified most of the issues yourself. I agree that this is a recipe for a problem, whether DCS or something even worse. Long surface interval, no refresher, no computer, poor ascent control and execution . . . This is why so many of us fret over people who are vacation divers. It sounds as though you are okay and just overly worried, but this is really a cautionary tale for others considering similar trips.

I have to admit something about this gets under my skin (not the part about my story being a recipe for disaster--that part I perfectly understand and am in agreement with you about). But it just seems like there's some kind of invisible elitism line being drawn here or something. I hate to think that people would think that they shouldn't try out diving unless they can commit a huge portion of their lives to it.

Is a "vacation diver" simply a person who dives occasionally as opposed to all the time? If so, what's the difference between a vacation diver and someone who is a dive enthusiast who travels specifically to engage in their hobby? Or I guess my question is what SHOULD be the difference, excepting the difficulty of dive? After all, regardless of if you have 20 dives like me or 2000 like some on this board, then the onus is on us to dive responsibly and within our experience level at all times, and to be educated and smart. Because many divers like myself don't dive as frequently does not excuse stupid, poorly-planned diving (as mine in this case, unfortunately), and in my opinion, neither should it preclude us from SAFELY enjoying diving (with reasonable refresher courses before trips, as I should've done).

I drive to work daily in my car, but I also safely ride my Vespa in my free time. I am not going to do the kind of competitive riding that people who are sponsored by Ducati do, but I also don't expect people to shake their heads and cluck at me for being a "non-commute rider" (that's not a real term, I just made it up for the purposes of the metaphor).

I will bow to wiser minds, though. Am I off-base?
 
I will bow to wiser minds, though. Am I off-base?

You are certainly off base with regards to your assumptions about TSandM's post. She is one of the most helpful, insightful, and newbie-friendly mods on the board, and I'm sure that she wasn't virtually clucking at you.

The point is that a "vacation diver" - in this case someone who almost injured themselves after returning to diving after a decade long break with no refresher course and using poor techniques - can definitely be a source for fretting by experienced divers who interact with them. This may be in person (as with an instabuddy on a dive trip) or here on the board. Sorry if you felt that this was meant as a pejorative term.

Don't take this personally, but you seem insightful enough to understand that diving requires a commitment to ongoing skills maintenance and situational awareness, in order to be done safely. A bit different from riding a bike (or a Vespa), in my opinion.

I'm not sure what your objection to the post was, but not keeping up one's skills for a period of years and then going into open water can certainly preclude one from safely enjoying diving.
 
Yes, all I was trying to say was that, if you dive regularly, you are more likely to remember all the things you want to think about on a dive, whether that's how to control your buoyancy, or making a safety stop. When you are out of the water for long periods, you lose stuff.

I recently did a cave diving trip to Mexico, and I hadn't been there in a year. I was appalled and embarrassed at how bad my line running skills were, because I hadn't practiced them. I realized I should have done a couple of warmup dives at home, to bring all those things back to the front of my mind.

For your trip, a refresher course, or a local dive or two, would have reminded you of stuff, I think.
 
I re-read your story 3 times, and the only thing I can guarantee you did wrong was surfacing alone, which I think is your most serious and most potentially dangerous mistake you made.

Nobody knows from your story if you exceeded NDL, you said it was multi-level but you didn't do any dive planning, no computer but you didn't say you consulted tables, you said you dived multi-level, but the assumption is you didn't exceed NDL on any of your levels.

We don't know if you ascended too quickly, you had no computer to guide you and you didn't mention using bubble speeds to gauge yourself or not.

Missing the safety stop wasn't a big deal as they are optional on no deco dives and just an extra margin of safety.

The biggest problem was a major mistake in splitting from your buddy. That was your biggest risk I took out of everything you described. Of everything you described that would be the number 1 thing I would see you change. Number two would be to either buy a dive computer or at least do dive planning prior to your consulting tables.

In hind site, when your hubby got certified, that would have been a great time to have joined him in the pool for a refresher. If you guys don't dive for years again, I'd suggest strongly doing some pool time before your next dives.

Glad you're okay, and it sounds like you got shaken up enough over this for it to be a wake up call, hopefully it will be and your next experience will be less stressful.
 
You are certainly off base with regards to your assumptions about TSandM's post. She is one of the most helpful, insightful, and newbie-friendly mods on the board, and I'm sure that she wasn't virtually clucking at you.

I WAS making assumptions about her post, admittedly, but not about her as a person. I'm sure she is lovely, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Sorry if it came off that way.

The point is that a "vacation diver" - in this case someone who almost injured themselves after returning to diving after a decade long break with no refresher course and using poor techniques - can definitely be a source for fretting by experienced divers who interact with them. This may be in person (as with an instabuddy on a dive trip) or here on the board. Sorry if you felt that this was meant as a pejorative term.

Really not meaning to play around in semantics, but how exactly is that not pejorative? Pejorative means "a belittling term, meant to express distaste." Isn't that pretty much exactly what it is? As you define it, "a "vacation diver" - in this case someone who almost injured themselves after returning to diving after a decade long break with no refresher course and using poor techniques - can definitely be a source for fretting by experienced divers who interact with them." I mean, I'm not disagreeing that I was an idiot, but had I taken a refresher course, planned my dive better, and been more smart about it, would I not still be a vacation diver or would I cease to deserve that term? There's nothing I could've done at this point about being away for ten years (and I don't regret it--I had other priorities that were valid).

Don't take this personally, but you seem insightful enough to understand that diving requires a commitment to ongoing skills maintenance and situational awareness, in order to be done safely. A bit different from riding a bike (or a Vespa), in my opinion.

Actually, in that respect it is not one whit different from riding a motorcycle.

I'm not taking this personally, genuinely. I hope I have demonstrated that by readily admitting to my copious faults. What I'm objecting to is not how I have been characterized personally, but I felt (and frankly, at this writing still feel) that the idea that an occasional diver somehow isn't expected to be safe or responsible is a bit objectionable. Because I wasn't in this circumstance doesn't mean we can't be. I think if we dive at our experience level we should be just as safe as someone who dives daily but to their much higher experience level. If we aren't, that's an individual problem, not a problem of how frequently we choose to dive, no? Otherwise, I may as well give it up if I can't be as safe as any other human. The idea of "vacation divers" seems to put me in a group of "people who use poor techniques," and I'm hoping that this is a group I can exit out of without having to depend on diving all the time to do so. Because frankly, I love diving and all, but it is not possible for me to do it all the time.

I'm not sure what your objection to the post was, but not keeping up one's skills for a period of years and then going into open water can certainly preclude one from safely enjoying diving.


I have not communicated well if you a) don't get my objection and b) think I disagree with that statement. My apologies for my failings in this regard.

---------- Post added January 6th, 2013 at 11:22 PM ----------

Yes, all I was trying to say was that, if you dive regularly, you are more likely to remember all the things you want to think about on a dive, whether that's how to control your buoyancy, or making a safety stop. When you are out of the water for long periods, you lose stuff.

I recently did a cave diving trip to Mexico, and I hadn't been there in a year. I was appalled and embarrassed at how bad my line running skills were, because I hadn't practiced them. I realized I should have done a couple of warmup dives at home, to bring all those things back to the front of my mind.

For your trip, a refresher course, or a local dive or two, would have reminded you of stuff, I think.

I fully agree and will not make that mistake again, I assure you! I'm not quite sure how I was this silly.

I should've done a refresher course and in fact, I had signed up to do one this last summer, as we originally planned this trip for late July. It's a long and personal story but for (transient, unrelated) medical reasons I wasn't able to scuba dive at all this summer, even in a pool, and we had to cancel the trip at that time and didn't know when or if we would be able to reschedule it. As it happened, we were able to go over New Year's, and planning things just got kind of dumb. Isn't that always how things like this happen!

---------- Post added January 6th, 2013 at 11:31 PM ----------

I re-read your story 3 times, and the only thing I can guarantee you did wrong was surfacing alone, which I think is your most serious and most potentially dangerous mistake you made.


Interesting. I thought that was odd too but the dive company, who I thought in every respect (though I obviously have limited knowledge) was excellent, seemed to think nothing of sending people up on their own. Your response makes me think I was right in thinking that was weird.


We don't know if you ascended too quickly, you had no computer to guide you and you didn't mention using bubble speeds to gauge yourself or not.


I pulled myself up the mooring line and tried to go hand over hand slowly. But the mooring line started at 40' and frankly, I just don't remember how I did it before 40' and also don't remember how far up the mooring line I started (maybe five feet from the anchor? Ten?). I don't know, it's totally indefensible.


Missing the safety stop wasn't a big deal as they are optional on no deco dives and just an extra margin of safety.


The biggest problem was a major mistake in splitting from your buddy. That was your biggest risk I took out of everything you described. Of everything you described that would be the number 1 thing I would see you change. Number two would be to either buy a dive computer or at least do dive planning prior to your consulting tables.


In hind site, when your hubby got certified, that would have been a great time to have joined him in the pool for a refresher.


That was the plan, but it turned out to be impossible. What happened was, I found out I was (surprisingly) pregnant at the time of his OW classes and so wasn't able to do the pool work. He elected to finish the class anyway in the idea that at some point we would go on a diving vacation, and ultimately, I ended up miscarrying and we were able to go on the trip after all in late December. I apologize if that was TMI or triggering for anyone but I wasn't sure how else to say it!


If you guys don't dive for years again, I'd suggest strongly doing some pool time before your next dives.


Um, YEAH! :) At least.


Glad you're okay, and it sounds like you got shaken up enough over this for it to be a wake up call, hopefully it will be and your next experience will be less stressful.
 
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Speaking as a "vacation diver" myself, it's hard to take offense with TSandM's post since she is absolutely right. I am fortunate in that most of my vacations are dive vacations so I get to dive 3 to 4 times a year but even so just a few months without diving makes me feel a little rusty with my first few dives each trip. I can't imagine returning to diving after 10 years without at least a pool refresher. And I think your post is a good lesson to others in similar circumstances. Thanks for being will to " take a hit" so others can learn.

i do not know TSandM except through her post on SB but from those I am sure it is concern for you and others with rusty dive skills that prompted her reply.
 
Really not meaning to play around in semantics, but how exactly is that not pejorative? Pejorative means "a belittling term, meant to express distaste." Isn't that pretty much exactly what it is? As you define it, "a "vacation diver" - in this case someone who almost injured themselves after returning to diving after a decade long break with no refresher course and using poor techniques - can definitely be a source for fretting by experienced divers who interact with them." I mean, I'm not disagreeing that I was an idiot


This is going way beyond interesting from a diving point of view, but I guess it's worth another round of posts.

"Vacation diver" was used here to describe a person who doesn't dive for a long time, then returns to diving without a refresher. So if you think that you were referred to as a "vacation diver" with the purpose of expressing distaste or to belittle you, then I don't think that you were reading the comments correctly, or were reading into them malice that did not exist. "Vacation diver" would be a good term to describe you, based on your own story, right?

A bunch of experienced divers here are taking time out of their day to try to help you, that doesn't sound like malice or belittlement to me. I haven't read one post that wasn't respectful and helpful. On the contrary, your response seems fairly defensive. You seem more concerned with your appearance on this board than with your personal safety, and see the label "vacation diver" as an insult.

Now calling you an "idiot" - THAT would be pejorative. And the only person who used that term was you.



Actually, in that respect it is not one whit different from riding a motorcycle.

I withdraw the comparison. I don't know anything about motorcycles.


I'm not taking this personally, genuinely. I hope I have demonstrated that by readily admitting to my copious faults. What I'm objecting to is not how I have been characterized personally, but I felt (and frankly, at this writing still feel) that the idea that an occasional diver somehow isn't expected to be safe or responsible is a bit objectionable. Because I wasn't in this circumstance doesn't mean we can't be. I think if we dive at our experience level we should be just as safe as someone who dives daily but to their much higher experience level. If we aren't, that's an individual problem, not a problem of how frequently we choose to dive, no? Otherwise, I may as well give it up if I can't be as safe as any other human. The idea of "vacation divers" seems to put me in a group of "people who use poor techniques," and I'm hoping that this is a group I can exit out of without having to depend on diving all the time to do so. Because frankly, I love diving and all, but it is not possible for me to do it all the time.


OK, will take you at your word. But I don't think that even with the best intentions, someone who dives one week every ten years with a total of 20 dives can be as safe as someone who dives regularly (even once a year). Again, I really don't get the issue here, but if your point is that someone who dives a little can be just as safe at 30 feet on a Caribbean reef as someone who dives a lot, then I would have to respectfully disagree.

That doesn't mean that people who "only" dive once a year shouldn't dive - it seems that you think that I am saying something like that. But more diving means more comfort in the water, better skills, more experiences with equipment failures, more experiences with suboptimal dive conditions, etc...

But obviously, we all dive to whatever frequency our lives and resources allow. It's just a hobby for most of us.

Safe diving, I hope that you get to dive more now that you are back into it..! And thanks for sharing your story... :)

M
 
After all, regardless of if you have 20 dives like me or 2000 like some on this board, then the onus is on us to dive responsibly and within our experience level at all times, and to be educated and smart. Because many divers like myself don't dive as frequently does not excuse stupid, poorly-planned diving (as mine in this case, unfortunately), and in my opinion, neither should it preclude us from SAFELY enjoying diving (with reasonable refresher courses before trips, as I should've done).

I drive to work daily in my car, but I also safely ride my Vespa in my free time. I am not going to do the kind of competitive riding that people who are sponsored by Ducati do, but I also don't expect people to shake their heads and cluck at me for being a "non-commute rider" (that's not a real term, I just made it up for the purposes of the metaphor).

I will bow to wiser minds, though. Am I off-base?

You are not off base... The problem is that as you experienced... you as a vacation diver (I.e. not dive usually, just on vacation) did not dive withing your experience level. You were not smart, and did not behave educatedly. You executed dives with poor planning, missing the appropriate gear, and not adhering to standards of safe diving.

I fully agree with TSandM here, and I think you really need to take responsibility for the outcome that COULD have happened. Either to YOU, or to your buddy.

I am sorry to be blunt. I really hope that you next dive trip (I hope you go on one...) bring an instructor, and keep either a depthguage and bottomtimer and dive tables, or that you rent/buy a computer.

You were lucky this time... Please dive so that luck don't have such a big part in the next dive vacation you do :wink:
 
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I think, and I believe a lot of people here would agree with me, that there is a big difference between the person who is a regular diver (say, at least once a month or so) and the person who dives only once a year on vacation -- or worse, once every several years, or in your case, with a ten year gap.

We talk a lot on this board about open water certification classes, and whether they are long enough and thorough enough for diver safety. One of the things that comes up repeatedly is that, no matter how well you train someone in the beginning, if they go a very long period without diving, they will lose facility and forget things they have learned. I think your story is a very good illustration of this. As you have admitted, there were multiple errors in planning, judgment and execution on your dives, which could have resulted in an injury. Some of these things might well have been avoided by doing a refresher class, which would have had some ideas much more in the front of your mind. But since certification does not expire, there is no requirement that people who dive infrequently do such a class. And sometimes, when one tries to convince someone to do one, the person thinks you're just trying to make money for your dive shop!

At any rate, a label is only useful if it delimits a class with identifiable characteristics. Using "vacation diver" to describe someone who dives infrequently DOES describe a class whose skills are likely to be rusty, and who may require more supervision than the "local diver" who dives more often. I don't think that's unfair, actually.
 
Hello pdxgal:

Diving andPhysical Activity

During my years at NASA, my team spent the majority of its research time in investigating the relationship of musculoskeletal activity [exercise] to DCS. In the null gravity environment on orbit in the Shuttle, the incidence of DCS was found to be much lower that would be expected from ground-based laboratory tests in a hypobaric [low pressure] chamber on the ground. There were several hypotheses as to why this might be true, but the one that best explained the data was the strain of physical activity. The hypothesis is that this muscle activity enlarged tissue micronuclei, the “seeds” of decompression bubbles.

This activity level is considerably less in a 0-g environment than on the ground in 1-g environment.The effect on the incidence of DCS is very large in experiments with human test subjects. This activity effect is less observable on Earth since we are always in Earth’s 1-g environment. However, when considerable activity occurs, DCS incidence can increase. As you mentioned, walking up a hill and stairs can have a bad influence on DCS incidence. More likely, in your case, the effect was one of fatigue and muscle soreness after the hill climb. If micronuclei had been formed in abundance, you would have most likely seen this with pain developing when the plane ascended and the cabin pressure was reduced. Nothing of this nature appears to have occurred.

Table Testing

Post-dive activity is not put into table testing experiments. Thus, avoid heavy exercise post dive or wait a few hours before muscle strain. If you do not use the tables under the conditions for which they were made and tested, you can encounter DCS trouble.

Dr Deco :doctor:
 

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