Hyperventilating at 110 feet

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Deep Air with increased Gas Density & Work-of-Breathing; then throw in Physical Exertion or a Stress Condition, resulting in overbreathing the regulator --all leading to the Vicious Cycle of CO2 Retention and sudden Narcosis. Can result in severe cognitive impairment at depth or worst case stupor and ultimately unconsciousness. . .

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba...23370-got-narced-hard-today-6.html#post248750
 
Just got back from Cozumel where I had 26 dives in two weeks. On my very last day I was at Columbia Deep and got into a situation where my training worked out but it was a close call...I was actually too nervous to adjust my 2nd stage G250 given my earlier incident so that is why I used my Octo. My Octo is a second stage regulator that I use as an Octo...
(emphasis added, jcr)
violinfather,

The Scubapro G250 has the adjusting knob so that, in a current, you can adjust it to breath harder so that the current does not cause it to leak air. It is a feature that the early cave divers wanted because loss of air would potentially threaten their lives in caves. But it is also a feature that caused the U.S. Navy Experimental Diving Unit (NEDU) to reject this regulator's predecessor because it could be used in a non-optimal setting.
The military specifications for open circuit SCUBA regulators provide a mechanism by which commercial vendors may submit their regulators to the Navy Experimental Diving Unit for testing for possible approval for U. S. Navy use. Accordingly, two SCUBA PRO single hose regulators, Models MARK I AND MARK V, were tested in December 1969. The inhalation resistance of the regulators was found under certain conditions to exceed the limits specified for single hose regulators in Mil-R-24169A. The regulators were, therefore, disapproved for U. S. Navy use. (Author)
http://archive.rubicon-foundation.org/xmlui/handle/123456789/4087

The full report can be seen here at this link. Note that with the adjusting knob all the way in, the breathing resistance is quite high. The G250 is mostly a plastic version of this regulator, update and improved, but with the same problem--the reason for the adjusting knob is not well understood. What you need to do is to adjust that knob out until it starts to leak, then back about 1/4 turn. Keep it there unless there is a real reason for making it breath harder.

You went to over 100 feet depth with a hard-breathing regulator. Your octopus second stage was breathing better than your primary second stage; you are not diving your equipment correctly.

SeaRat
 
violinfather,

The Scubapro G250 has the adjusting knob so that, in a current, you can adjust it to breath harder so that the current does not cause it to leak air. It is a feature that the early cave divers wanted because loss of air would potentially threaten their lives in caves. But it is also a feature that caused the U.S. Navy Experimental Diving Unit (NEDU) to reject this regulator's predecessor because it could be used in a non-optimal setting.

The full report can be seen here at this link. Note that with the adjusting knob all the way in, the breathing resistance is quite high. The G250 is mostly a plastic version of this regulator, update and improved, but with the same problem--the reason for the adjusting knob is not well understood. What you need to do is to adjust that knob out until it starts to leak, then back about 1/4 turn. Keep it there unless there is a real reason for making it breath harder.

You went to over 100 feet depth with a hard-breathing regulator. Your octopus second stage was breathing better than your primary second stage; you are not diving your equipment correctly.

SeaRat

I appreciate your feedback. Upon examining the G250 I did find that the the metal knob was screwed quite a bit in. You are correct I need to understand my equipment better.
 
I have Scubapro S600's, and have tried with everything I had to over breath my regs during a highly physical part of a dive in heavy current, and they just kept providing as much air as I needed. With the adjustment knob opened up, there is never a time when they won't supply as much gas as my body desires. Point being this was probably brought on by the regulator not supplying enough air, and should have been able to be resolved in a few seconds with a twist of the knob. There is also a lever that changes it from "dive" to "Predive", that needs to be in the right place to help the regs breathing capability. Where is that lever set too?

My octo held on a bungee under my chin is identical to my other second stage that I typically breathe off of, another S600. The bungee backup is detuned a little more than my primary, and the knob is always turned in. If I want to use it comfortably I need to quickly turn the knob out, then it breathes perfectly.
 
Thanks Allan. I meant to put second stage like I had earlier in the message. I edited it. I am quite fit however I can tell you that I will be returning to a much higher cardio based exercise routine following this incident. I have been focusing on weight training but realize that I need to increase the cardio.

Actually, you're kind of backwards on this.

While it's good to be in shape, the idea isn't to be able to "power though" a marathon sprint, it's to have the judgement to know that it's a bad idea, and be able to safely dive, and end the dive even if the DM ditches you.

flots.
 
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Immediately upon reaching our max depth I found I could not catch my breath. This resulted in a panicked feeling and even more rapid and shallow breathing. I signaled to my daughter to advise the dive guide that I wanted to surface immediately.

Violindad, thank you for posting. I'm glad everything worked out okay for you and your daughter.

You handled things well. Pat yourself onteh back.

Hyperventilation is a scary feeling - especially if yoiu don't know what's happening. Long ago, it happened to me, and I'll never forget it.

I don't think your athletic dive guide should have rushed your group down to 110. Diving should be FUN.

Keep diving.
 
I have Scubapro S600's, and have tried with everything I had to over breath my regs during a highly physical part of a dive in heavy current, and they just kept providing as much air as I needed. With the adjustment knob opened up, there is never a time when they won't supply as much gas as my body desires. Point being this was probably brought on by the regulator not supplying enough air, and should have been able to be resolved in a few seconds with a twist of the knob. There is also a lever that changes it from "dive" to "Predive", that needs to be in the right place to help the regs breathing capability. Where is that lever set too?

My octo held on a bungee under my chin is identical to my other second stage that I typically breathe off of, another S600. The bungee backup is detuned a little more than my primary, and the knob is always turned in. If I want to use it comfortably I need to quickly turn the knob out, then it breathes perfectly.
(emphasis added, jcr)
If you look at the schematics, there is also a vane that can be oriented to different amounts of deflection of the air flow in the G250.
http://www.frogkick.dk/manuals/scubapro/Schematics/2. Stage/

In Scubapro's manual, they describe it as a V.I.V.A. control. It is independent of the adjusting knob which controls inhalation resistance. I don't think this model has a "Pre-dive" and "Dive" position. That feature is on my A.I.R. I regulator, and is a spring which is placed onto the diaphragm to make the inhalation resistance quite high to prevent free-flow on the surface.

http://www.scubapro.com/media/59907/scubapro_regulators-english.pdf

One other point; these regulator first stages have one LP outlet on the top of the cap, with the other ones off to the side. If you are diving deep, or are working hard, you need your primary regulator to be attached on that top LP outlet. This allows the air to flow to the second stage without having to make a 90 degree change in direction. That 90 degree change in direction causes what in ventilation terms are known as turbulent flow. This turbulence causes the regulator to not perform to its optimum level. It was placed on these regulators when an inexpensive Scubapro first stage (the Mk I regulator) out-performed their more expensive Mk 5 regulator in NEDU tests.

Again, this is knowing the regulator, and using it accordingly.

SeaRat

John C. Ratliff, CSP, CIH, MSPH
 
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Never had to try it, but I remember hearing that when you're trying to calm yourself during "stop---breathe", wrapping your arms around like you're trying to "hug yourself" helps you feel comforted, which in turn helps slow your breathing and thinking down.

Anyone ever try this in water? On land it seems to work.
 
I am not really agreeing with boulderjohn on this one. Sounds more like hypoxemia and yes your body does have a means of detecting low arterial po2...they are called Peripheral chemoreceptors. Rapid breathing does not cause a CO2 build up...not breathing or not breathing properly does (breath holding or skip breathing). why do you think that free divers like to hyperventilate...they blow off CO2 and wait for the low arterial po2 to stimulate them to breathe which is a very good cause for shallow water blackout. So by stopping all additional movement does not help you get rid of CO2 but keeps large muscles from burning more oxygen. It could be a mixture of both but I would stand that it was more of a lack of oxygen than a build up of CO2. OBTW, what FiO2 were you breathing?

I have to take issue with this (and, btw, I'm a physician with substantial critical care training).

We DO have a mechanism for sensing low arterial oxygen tension, but it is weak and poor, and nowhere near as powerful as the drive to keep CO2 down. Freedivers DO hyperventilate to get rid of CO2 before diving, but they don't do so they can "wait for the low arterial pO2 to stimulate them to breathe". They do it so they can avoid the CO2 limiting their time underwater, and the DANGER of it is that they will pass out, because they DON'T have warning from the low arterial pO2 to tell them it is going to happen.

Rapid breathing does not necessarily result in CO2 retention, but rapid SHALLOW breathing absolutely will. This is because the ventilation with shallow breaths is largely confined to exchanging the gas in the large air spaces, which do not participate in gas transfer to the bloodstream. On Scuba, if you breathe very rapidly, you will almost of necessity be breathing shallowly -- this is because the work of breathing is higher through a regulator than it is sitting in a room. The body tolerates increased work of breathing poorly. We are designed for breathing to be almost effortless, and when it isn't the person gets acutely uncomfortable. I would suspect anybody who has used a snorkel has had the experience of trying to chase some critter and getting very out of breath . . . this is because the snorkel increases dead space, and to maintain the same level of exertion as on land, one has to move much more air, and the work of breathing is very unpleasant.

Exerting yourself excessively on scuba will almost certainly result in CO2 retention. CO2 retention makes you feel anxious, and makes you breathe harder . . . and on a regulator, that translated very quickly breathing faster, but not as deep, which results in even MORE CO2 retention.

CO2 is the issue here. Remember that the air you are breathing at 4 ATA has as high an oxygen content as breathing through a high-flow mask of pure oxygen. It is difficult to get hypoxemic at depth, unless you are using a rebreather and not delivering oxygen into your breathing gas.
 
I do respect your point of view. We are basically saying the same thing. An acute increase on workload requires more oxygen due to the increased metabolic activity. With this increased metabolic activity you will have an increase on CO2 as well as a decrease in pO2. What I was trying to convey is that CO2 will cause you to breathe faster, that is the way it is suppose to be, but so will hypoxemia. You really cannot have one without the other. I have done hundreds of home O2 evals and when oxygen is indicated you will see as the patient begins to walk, SpO2 decreases, respiratory rate increases as well as heart rate. At this point all muscles are working harder and faster thus burning more oxygen and creating more CO2. You and I both know that elevated CO2 levels have a narcotic effect on the brain. The OP did not state that he had a headache, inability to think straight nor drowsiness or sleepiness which are the usual symptoms of elevated CO2. So we are saying the same thing...stop all unessary activity, take good slow deep breaths and exhale fully to increase you uptake of oxygen and decrease your CO2.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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