I think I may have picked the wrong instructor - advise please

[Colliam7]

I'm going to check with PADI.

Please do. My encouragement has nothing to do with bashing your instructor. There are usually two sides in every disagreement, and we only have yours (not doubting your account, merely pointing out the situation).

BUT, you have said enough things to cause me concern - as a PADI instructor. Here's why I encourage you to follow up with PADI. In another current thread, a statement was made in a discussion about possible substandard courses, that 'The QA process seems to be failing.' In that case I didn't think it actually was, although the situation described was not appealing to me as an instructor. But, it raised the question: HOW does any certification agency perform quality assurance? Instructors are credentialed by various agencies after undergoing formal training, they are provided with clear and explicit (and written) standards and performance requirements that they are expected to follow, and they even sign a statement promising to abide by those standards and requirements (at least that happens with PADI; I assume it is the case with other agencies). But, some instructors nonetheless fall short of the integrity mark. HOW does an agency know that has happened, unless somebody tells them? PADI (among others) does a good job of surveying divers who participate in PADI courses, and asks pointed questions to try and determine if standards were met. In fact, PADI's goal is to survey EVERY newly certified OW diver, and a sample of all others. That doesn't mean that every new diver responds to the survey (unfortunately, many don't). But, the agency effort is there. In addition PADI (and other agencies) must rely on - in truth, needs - spontaneous feedback. PADI is not omniscient, they are not an organizational Santa Claus, knowing whether every instructor has been 'naughty or nice' - they don't know when someone is doing a bad job unless they are alerted to issues.

It may turn out that the instructor in question is appropriately credentialed, and insured (a PADI requirement for teaching), and is just running a poor business, or is teaching at the edge of standards. But, given your comments, it is at least possible that he is not appropriately credentialed.

PLEASE follow up with PADI to share your experience.

 

[Mr. Black]

As Jim mentioned, it's time to kick your instructor to the curb. I'd also tell him you want your money back. If he refuses, tell your credit card company and they'll take care of it.

And tell them what exactly? He hasn't been defrauded and the service provider hasn't refused service.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[flots am]

And tell them what exactly? He hasn't been defrauded and the service provider hasn't refused service.

Tell the bank that he did not provide the contracted service.

The bank will refund the money, leaving the instructor to prove that he met all of PADI's training requirements.

flots.

 

[The Chairman]

And tell them what exactly?

Breach of contract and an unsafe environment.

 

[RJP]

Breach of contract and an unsafe environment.

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think the way someone signs up for a scuba course would meet the specific legal requirements to be considered a "contract" in most states. (Offer, agreement, consideration, terms, written contract or proper oral form, etc) No more than ordering an expensive meal in a restaurant and not liking it or finding it prepared in an unsafe manner would entitle the dinner to claim breach of contract with the restaurant.

I doubt there here is a written contract in place, so at minimum it'd be a lot hard to demonstrate that a verbal contract existed. And, even if one did it would potentially be found unenforceable as the services (training for he and his wife) cost more than $500 which would require a written contract in most states.

A claim through the credit card company that the instructor failed to sufficiently provide the agreed upon service might get some traction, but throwing around legal terms - that are not applicable - in a naive fashion is not only unlikely to help, but likely to have the credit card company pay even less attention. If nothing else it says "I'm a reactionary person who has no idea what I'm talking about."

 

[The Chairman]

A claim through the credit card company that the instructor failed to sufficiently provide the agreed upon service

Which would be, wait for it... a breach of contract. Contracts do not have to be on paper and signed to be enforceable. As soon as the instructor was paid, he entered in a contract with them to provide instruction, leading to a Scuba certification. From this side of the story, and there are always at least two, the instructor has failed to meet their reasonable expectations for the course. It doesn't take a lawyer to see this failure and the only decent thing to do is to refund their money. I bet you would find the CC company jumping all over such an actionable description. I'll bet they wouldn't do a thing if he simply indicates that he doesn't like him or simply isn't happy with the class. You have to give the CC companies something they can use to stop payment. Breach of contract is a biggie and that's just what has happened here.

 

[boulderjohn]

And tell them what exactly? He hasn't been defrauded and the service provider hasn't refused service.

Renting pool time can be very, very expensive, and it would not surprise me if he wants to minimize that time. I can't do the pool requirements for a couple in two hours--ever. He says it is normal. My guess is he is skipping standards. Start by making a list of everything that was done in that two hour pool session.

There are 20 required skills.
You have to do a 200 yard swim.
You have to do a 10 minute float.
You have to do 5 equipment setups and breakdowns, although you don't have to do them during the time you are scheduled to be in the water.
​

He paid for two sets of books and got one.

 

[RJP]

which would be, wait for it... breach of contract.

Breach of contract is a biggie and that's just what has happened here.

In order for a contract to be breached there needs to be... wait for it... a contract.

There wasn't a contract between the OP and the instructor, therefor there can be no "breach of contract" on the part of the instructor. The term "contract" has a very specific legal meaning. Accordingly, theere are certain, specific legal requirements for a contract to exist. Those criteria may vary slightly from state to state, but signing up for a scuba class doesn't meet those criteria in any state that know of. Pretty simple.

 

[Pizz]

Renting pool time can be very, very expensive, and it would not surprise me if he wants to minimize that time. I can't do the pool requirements for a couple in two hours--ever. He says it is normal. My guess is he is skipping standards. Start by making a list of everything that was done in that two hour pool session.

There are 20 required skills.
You have to do a 200 yard swim.
You have to do a 10 minute float.
You have to do 5 equipment setups and breakdowns, although you don't have to do them during the time you are scheduled to be in the water.
​

He paid for two sets of books and got one.

OK, first pool session approx 2 hours starting with hauling gear in and then hauling gear out and waiting for him to park car (all part of the two hours). Here's what I remember, but all was done quickly.

Assembled gear

Wife in her own 1.5 mm suit, me in one old one with knee reinforcements coming unglued and crotch closer to my knees than, well, than. . crotch. (I'm a perfect 42 regular and this was an XLarge something -)
Explained regulator, octo, bcd, inflation, hoses, etc
Watch him weight BDCs
Put on gear in water - play with air, trim, etc.
Explain sign language (not covered at all before) and done way too quick
Clear mask (twice each)
Clear snorkle (took wife 3 times, me once)
Clear Reg and learn about purge valve
Three or four minutes under water breathing to get over anxiety of being under water
A few minutes on bottom (we were in shallow area 4'ft the whole time) and he tried to have us play with bouyancy and breathing, but I was overweighted I think (couldn't get my chest off bottom no matter how deep I breathed, and wife was underweighted, couldn't stay down) - he never did explain what we were trying to do (fin pivot I think)
100 yard swim test and no flotation test
Lecture on advantages of split fins (ours aren't)
Try his fins
Pack up and leave

2nd Session (had one other student with us for 1st session)
Would not let us use our fins, had to use split fins he provided, and to be perfectly honest, neither my wife or I like them (feels like no traction compared to our Mako's and harder to turn) but then again I've been either told or read that you have to kick different with splits. . . we were never given instruction on kicking, just that since we are older, splits would be better.

Watched him weight the BCD's (he had to ask us how much weight he had used the first time, I knew mine cause I had asked him (16 lbs) but he had to estimate wife's again. Got in water and put on equipment. This is when I noticed we had different BCD's than first time. Wife's was cinched tight and was bobbing up around her ears ( I could stick my fist between bcd and her with room to spare, mine was cinched tight but a bit loose. When he had us fill the bladders I asked him how I was suposed to tell how full cause I couldn't feel it like in first session - I was glared at and got no answer.

We went thru the same "getting comfortable under water" again, then he told us to do a few laps under water while he worked with other student. Long story short, wife spent more time on her back, head down, feet down and all combinations between. I was trying to help her, but she kept asking why she didn't have this problem in first session - and kept getting no answer other than she was using her hands too much.

About a half hour later he got us back to gether (after I assume the other student was at our level (whatever that was) and moved us over to a lap lane - did a couple laps at about 6 ft. Wife did better once she got some speed up, but slowing and turning would flip her over, up and down, etc again. Neither of us could completely stay in lane. . .starting to be a bit of problem. Told us we were going to learn to buddy breath - me and wife, him and other student, but then took us under and started us freeflow breathing again (I even got confused on this, but wife was trying to stay on bottom like we were told but couldn't move cause every time she would reach for her reg she'd flip over or start going feet up. . .He then took us up, looked my wife in the face and told her the only reason she was there was because I wanted her to be. I then called the pool session for us, told him to teach his other student and we got out. Spent the ride home listening to him praise the benefits of "negative reinforcement " as a teaching tool. Got back to shop, told me to call him in a few day and that we would get through all this, and took his other student back into his 'Office'. Wife later told me the other student had passed his pool session.

Pizz

---------- Post added December 21st, 2013 at 12:23 PM ----------

Renting pool time can be very, very expensive, and it would not surprise me if he wants to minimize that time.

Mind telling me how much you pay for pool time???? I'm firmly convinced money (his lack thereof) is a primary factor in what I'm starting see be confirmed as getting "short changed" with closed water training.

Pizz

 

[The Chairman]

RJP, you won't be surprised that I... Wait for it... disagree with you! To be sure, so does Wikipedia: Contract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In common law legal systems, a contract is an agreement having a lawful object entered into voluntarily by two or more parties, each of whom intends to create one or more legal obligations between them. The elements of a contract are "offer" and "acceptance" by "competent persons" having legal capacity who exchange "consideration" to create "mutuality of obligation."^[1]
Proof of some or all of these elements may be done in writing, though contracts may be made entirely orally or by conduct. The remedy for breach of contract can be "damages" in the form of compensation of money or specific performance enforced through an injunction. Both of these remedies award the party at loss the "benefit of the bargain" or expectation damages, which are greater than mere reliance damages, as in promissory estoppel. The parties may be natural persons or juristic persons. A contract is a legally enforceable promise or undertaking that something will or will not occur. The word promise can be used as a legal synonym for contract,^[2] although care is required as a promise may not have the full standing of a contract, as when it is an agreement without consideration.

If I pay you for a Scuba class, we have entered into a legal contract. It's just that simple. The agreement might be oral, and much of it is probably assumed, but it is a contract nevertheless. A failure to live up to reasonable expectations in such a contract is a breach of that contract.

If you want to get your money back, you have to talk their language. Quite simply that means you have to put it into terms they can use to justify their actions. Not every complaint is actionable, but not living up to the contract, or agreement is. When you put it as such, the CC company would be compelled to act in your favor.