I was wondering............

[King_Neptune]

Rick,

What I have suggested is that business is moving towards a separation of service and product

Ok, granted, and I have agreed. But what I am saying is that doesn't have to be a bad thing.

If that is the way things are going then wouldn't the next wise thing be to prepare yourself? My suggestion would be to read up at DETA.

btw, to answer your bulleted question, yes I have and yes I do.
---------------------------------
turnerjd,

All shops tell you their kit is the best, but a lot of them (the majority?) are consciencious enough to tell you if it isn't suitable / appropriate, rather than sell it to you regardless.

I SO badly wish that were the case, but it is not.




=-)

 

[Rick Murchison]

from turnerJD
>All shops tell you their kit is the best, but a lot of them (the majority?) are consciencious enough to tell you if it isn't suitable / appropriate, rather than sell it to you regardless.

KN responds:
I SO badly wish that were the case, but it is not.
------------
How right you are, KN. But we must be *very careful* in proposing regulation as a solution. I'll forego the book-long explanation in favor of the very short one - regulation doesn't work.
For all the pitfalls of the free market, it delivers the most for the least, and I, for one, am willing to put up with a little chaos to get the benefit.
Rick

 

[Military Diver]

but a lot of them (the majority?) are consciencious enough to tell you if it isn't suitable / appropriate, rather than sell it to you regardless.

No way is this the norm, I agree that THIS is sadly the part that is the DYING ART! But is not just the consumers fault.

Adding to what Mario said I would like to say that I for one am all for it. Why? Because you suggest that the Dive Shops are the good guys and the consumers are at fault. Well, I am here to tell you that OBVIOUSLY the consumers are just as fed up!

KN, you mentioned a few times DETA and I didn't follow at first. But now I do and I think I see where you were going with that. There is a lack of good quality service out there and it is about time someone sees the light and steps up to the plate.

I have emailed the folks there as I am very interested. Thanks again for once more opening my eyes. I have to say, KN, that I really admire the way you work. Subtle, and quietly you slip in the knowledge, but I want to thank you for that. I am a little more open minded and do more reading here than posting but I am always willing to learn.

turnerjd, the only place I openly see your statement being reality is in this "Virtual Reality" place called ScubaBoard, hehe. It's no wonder this place is growing faster than any other place online. You guys are doing something right and I for one am listening!

I do repairs on my own equipment and plan on learning more and getting certs through DETA when I find what they offer.

KN, I am often in San Diego and if you ever have the time I would like to meet with you and pick your brain for awhile. You see some things that I often wondered if anyone ever would that is actually willing to speak out about it. I admire that.

 

[King_Neptune]

Rick,

"regulation doesn't work" ... I agree, and "Self Regulation" hasn't worked either. This is where the "Good Guys" end up finishing last.

But DETA is not a regulatory agency in that manner. I, as a consumer, think being able to "CHECK" the validity of a service or shop would be awesome! Maybe then, the honest shops would be repaid for their honesty and good service instead of the ones with less morals.

This, IMHO, is a step in the right direction.

I like having the ability to check up on those hands I am placing my life into. Just as you can call and check on the legitimacy of an Instructors Lic., I want to know who is providing the servicing. My point is, there are steps to make things better out there. The problem is educating the masses to have and understand and MOST importantly USE this knowledge.

The effect this will have is to FORCE "Self Regulation". The Diving Industry has NOT been a Consumer driven market like the Computer Industry. And when you see the consumer asking one place and buying in another, you are starting to see the consumer take back control.

I will use your "Computer Industry" as an example. Intel has dictated prices and to an extent growth. AMD came onto the scene and offered a comparable product at 1/2 the cost. The rest is history! Within weeks Intel dropped their prices by 1/2 and AMD dropped theirs another 1/4 and soon everyone you knew was buying one. What just happened? The Consumer spoke out. Give us a quality product at a reduced price and we will reward you. Wake up Scuba Industry, because the consumers are starting to speak.

Like it or not, changes need to be made. So far a couple of scuba related companies have expressed interest in what I and thus the SSN is all about. After the 100's of arguments and countless hours debating with them the what, where, why's and how's of what I was proposing, I convinced them to call my bluff, try me, test me, make me put my reputation on the line and let me show them. For every month they let me take control, I was able to increase their sales by 600%! Once again, that was starting with the VERY 1st MONTH and continued to grow from there. I have no problems with anyone challenging me. These boards alone are proof that what everyone says CAN'T be done CAN be done, if done correctly.


=-)

 

[Military Diver]

KN,

I don't know what amazes me more, that someone is actually willing to speak out about all of this, or that someone is willing to SHARE a solution as well as point out the problem.

Something I noticed - Rick, I am assuming is a shop owner, is willing to speak up and learn as well as teach, but where are all the other shop owners??? Instead of complaining about the Internet and how it is hurting them, why in the heck aren't they in here learning and using it as well?

 

[King_Neptune]

MilDiver,

If you look back you will see I hinted to the same question.

You see, people have the WRONG idea on how to use the Internet. The ones that make it and make it big are those that understand the Internet as an EXTENTION of their current business. Not as its own monstor! It needs to EXTEND their services and knowledge, not just create new ones.

This is what I, as a Consultant, have been helping companies do for many years now. I have had nothing but thanks from my clients, but the Diving Industry has been different. They don't like being told they are wrong or that they can do better. Some, have seen the light, and are better off now for it. I know it's a uphill battle but it is one that can be won.

Unknown - "Built it and they will come" - HA!

KN - "Built what they want and they will come" - Ah Ha!

It really isnt all that hard to figure out what they want, but people can be stubborn. (and the "Good Ol Boys" don't like outsiders)

Anyone can sit on the sidelines and complain, but as I said before, I want to credited as part of the solution, not as part of the problem.

Rick, from what you stated, you sound to be apart of the minority, and I respect that. But stick to your guns.

Remember, "The Consumer is always right" ...

It's just up to you to teach them what "Right" is ...

=-)

 

[Bsting]

Military Diver, I too have been following this thread, and many others, but this one especially, and see the same things as you do in what King Neptune teases us with. Though
I understand why he can't tell us everything up his sleave, it is frustrating to hear "just wait, you'll see" I can live with the frustration though, because i can tell there is something massive on the horizon, headed this way.

You guys show me where I can buy dive gear cheaper than the shop's down the street, that offer FULL manufacturer support and you have my business!

I'm open to buy gear online. I already do with many other things, I'm not one to pass up a few hundred dollars in savings. Therefore I will consider buying my dive gear online as well.

There are a number of very experienced divers offering their opinions here, and don't get me wrong, Military Diver, Mario, Rick, King Neptune and other's, I respect your opinions and listen almost on a daily basis through these boards. But, ultimately I will make my own choices and draw my own conclusions as to were I choose to spend my hard earned money. Most divers are capable of making smart rational choices given all of the information they need to sift through, to make that educated choice.

Thank you everyone, and keep up the good work!

 

[Warhammer]

I think that the dive industry takes this "loyalty" thing too far.

An example: When I recently started inquiring about purchasing a new set of gear my local shop just absolutely refused to budge more than a few dollars on price. Gave me the story that the manufactors dictate price and they can't go below it or else they'll lose the distributorship.

Ok, fine, if that's the case then I can respect that and I for one wouldn't want the shop loosing anything in order to sell me a piece of gear. But there are ways around these things, as there always are.

I showed the shop owner a quote from LP for all the gear he had that I wanted. The price difference was alot, something like $600. I told him that I didn't expect him to match it, but if he wanted my business then he'd at least have to get within $100 to $200. He refused to budge adding that if I chose to buy at LP then don't bring it to him when it needs servicing and etc. That one statement was all he had to make, he could have told me that up front and saved us both hours of time debating the issue, I left.

In no other industry have I ever seen that demand for loyalty. I have a friend that owns a tire store for instance. Do you think he'd refuse all customers that bought their tires elsewhere? Heck no, if he did he'd soon be out of business. If you buy them from him you'll get little frenge benefits like free rotations and such, but to refuse service would be suicide.

I eventually found a shop willing to do whatever it takes to make me, the customer, happy, which is what service is all about. He was willing to reduce the prices in any way necessary, like offer gift certificates, to make the sale and make me happy. No he didn't match the LP prices but he got close and I got more gear than I had planned to buy, which was a win win situation for me and him.

But I do see the difference between the dive industry and other industries such as computers. Let's face it, you can't mail-order instruction and tank fills, practically.

So we as divers need to the local shops. But I do think that alot of them need to wake up and smell the coffee. The internet is here to stay, you either compete or you go broke. If the manufactors won't support lower prices, then improvise.

 

[turnerjd]

OK all.

I origionally said that dive stores generally are consciencious enough to tell you whan something is not correct / right for you.

I will modify this now to:

The dive stores that I've been to in the UK that I have had dealings with have all proved consciencious enough ...

Obviously there are some BIG differences between the shops. Certainly in the these UK shopes, they are more attuned to the fact that if they give good advice you will come back.

Seems like customer service isn't dead here yet.

Jon T

 

[Rick Murchison]

Warhammer sez:
"Gave me the story that the manufactors dictate price and they can't go below it or else they'll lose the distributorship."

This is the truth.

It is also true that there are plenty out there who are willing to violate their agreement with the manufacturers to satisfy customers like you who demand they violate that agreement in order to have your business - so, you see, you are demanding the corruption you claim to abhor.

Your ire is misplaced; the honest shop owner is between a rock and a hard place - in order to get your business he has to cheat, and in order to stay in business he needs the business. Just makes you want to rush out there and open a shop of your own, doesn't it?

The degradation of the general moral climate over the past several decades has been sad and alarming. We see the piles of regulatory paper growing higher at an ever increasing rate while the petty larcenies in the marketplace parallel that increase, all while business overhead (taxes, liability and regulatory compliance - together with tax reduction schemes, liability reducing schemes and clever ways around regulations - at the forefront) zooms up as well.

The answers to these problems are not to be found in government or the marketplace, but in church. Too bad that's all but illegal these days.