If you are a new diver, please read this

[Kevrumbo]

Some easy "Rules of Thumb" Gas Planning for the Basic Open Water Diver:

1. Rock Bottom: 100psi per 10 fsw for LP104/LP95/HP120s/HP130, 100 psi per 10 fsw + 300 psi for Al80s/HP100s/LP72 -- 500 psi minimum for all calcuations.
2. 0.75 SAC: 300 psi per 10 mins per ATA for Al80/HP100/LP72, 200 psi per 10 mins per ATA for LP104/LP95/HP120s/HP130.

Taken from Lamont's highly influential post [at least for me it was --and still is!] in a thread very much like this one, over three years ago (full text of post #61 and some context here ). Also wrote about Gas Management strategy using the above and implementing "on-the-fly". The important skill I learned --just based on the rules above-- is how to develop an intuitive feel for your gas consumption at depth in 10 minute segments and verifying it with a check of the SPG. . .

And the attached below is a Gas Planning Rock Bottom Spreadsheet, which applies NWGratefulDiver's article very nicely and neatly, with all the heavy arithmetic aside and transparent. . .

 

[Walter]

Hey, it's no secret that I don't like PADI, but there is some misinformation in this thread. PADI instructors can teach gas management. They can even call it "gas management" when they teach it. They can teach SAC calculations. They cannot require passing a test on it prior to certification.

This whole thread stems from the fact some PADI instructor trainer (CD or whatever silly name they are using these days) told Peter he wasn't allowed to teach it in his instructor course. Unless PADI's standards expressly forbid teaching something, it can be taught. As far as I've seen, PADI's standards do not forbid teaching gas management. OK, so Peter couldn't teach it to other instructors and instructor candidates in his class, big deal. He can teach it as a PADI instructor if he so chooses.

Actually now that you mention it there are several "advanced planning" concepts that could be bundled into one specialty. Something like this would probably become a popular course and would probably take a lot of the thunder out of the anti-Padi rhetoric.

First we have peak performance buoyancy now there's a proposal for gas planning. How many extra classes does PADI need to teach the things they should be teaching in the Open Water class?

I've never met a PADI instructor that stated OW skills are mastered in the OW class.

Interesting. PADI standards require them to be mastered.

There is a group of older divers that were certified by pseudo or real Navy seals, forced to do pushups with a set of doubles on their back, swim the English channel, do a search and recovery in LA harbor at night and pass a 1000 question test, that feel that with any less training you will certainly die. They also dived without BC's or SPG's. They just relied on a J Valve and a watch.

No, there isn't.

The reality is that PADI and most other agencies provide enough training to allow a diver to decide if diving is right for them. We all know that only a small number of newly trained divers continue to dive on any regular basis and most of them have gone one to further their training and dive education.

The dropout rate is extremely high because new divers know they aren't safe diving on their own. They are scared to death and rightly so.

We also know the divers that only dive on vacation in some nice warm tropical locale with a DM sheparding their every move, for them OW training is also sufficient.

That came about because so many certified divers are a danger to themselves. They need a DM to keep them safe. If you need a DM to dive, your training was inadequate.

It was a WONDERFUL course

Then why don't you teach it?

I contend you are giving them a needless excercise at the OW level when you could be "teaching" them important skills for that level... buddy, bouyancy... heck, even how to use their computer...

Jim, he teaches a 100 hour course, he's not leaving out anything to make room for SAC calculations.

Yes, every single time, I will suggest that for an equivalent number of dives, the cold water diver will be superior to the warm water diver.

Yep, those cold quarries really prepare divers for strong currents and rough seas...

Cold is merely one element to consider in experience.

 

[VooDooGasMan]

Finally, Walter you have done it, I was so amazed how so many do not have the padi dive system memorized, from 20 to 30 years ago to now padi hasn't changed much.

Happy Diving

 

[TSandM]

OK, I went back and edited the original post to be very specific about what Peter was told he could not teach. Everybody happy now?

I still think it's a good idea for people to read Bob's article, and judging from the amount of thanks that disappeared when I edited the post, some other people did, too.

Just to explain a little bit about the original post: A couple of weeks ago, I had to attempt resuscitation on a friend who died diving. He did not survive. I'm a little raw about this, although it may well be that there was no diving error involved in the case, and certainly he did not run out of gas. But another fatality in our local area in just a couple of weeks, and one where the "incident pit" clearly began with running very low on gas at depth, was more than I could take. I was distraught when I started this thread, but I still think the content is valuable.

 

[TSandM]

OK, I went back and edited the original post to be very specific about what Peter was told he could not teach. Everybody happy now?

I still think it's a good idea for people to read Bob's article, and judging from the amount of thanks that disappeared when I edited the post, some other people did, too.

Just to explain a little bit about the original post: A couple of weeks ago, I had to attempt resuscitation on a friend who died diving. He did not survive. I'm a little raw about this, although it may well be that there was no diving error involved in the case, and certainly he did not run out of gas. But another fatality in our local area in just a couple of weeks, and one where the "incident pit" clearly began with running very low on gas at depth, was more than I could take. I was distraught when I started this thread, but I still think the content is valuable.

 

[themagni]

I don't think it's that 90% don't want to know. I think probably half or more of those people never dive again after certification, or do the one trip they got certified for, and that's it. I can't believe the number of people I have run into who say, "Oh, yes, I took the class, but I never dove afterwards."

Of the people who do continue to dive, my guess is that a large portion only do a few dives every year or so, on a warm water vacation.

I would guess that only a small fraction of the people who learn to dive ever become really committed, regular divers. And I would guess most of those people go on to take some sort of additional education.

I learned to dive after my wife (a non-diver) got tired of me saying how I wanted to learn how to dive every time we drove past a FLDS. My OW class was great - we got all the checkout dives taken care of with a day to spare, so we got in two extra fun dives while we still had all the equipment loaned out to us.

I took AOW after a hiatus while I finished my degree. One of my fellow students on that class died on a later dive. (Glenn on the HMCS McKenzie.) I'm waiting until I get to about 100 dives before I take rescue because I want to feel like I can take care of myself first. It's the same kind of thing that this board complains about - take OW, take AOW, take rescue, then you've got 3 cards and no dives.

Diving is logistically difficult for me because I've got two small kids who require care when I'm out. I tend to dive about once a month on average and about half the dives are night dives once everyone else has gone to bed. I flood my mask and swap out regs on each dive, and thanks to this thread I'm going to start orally inflating at the surface.

The most exotic locale I've been to was a local boat dive.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

OK, I went back and edited the original post to be very specific about what Peter was told he could not teach. Everybody happy now?

I still think it's a good idea for people to read Bob's article, and judging from the amount of thanks that disappeared when I edited the post, some other people did, too.

Just to explain a little bit about the original post: A couple of weeks ago, I had to attempt resuscitation on a friend who died diving. He did not survive. I'm a little raw about this, although it may well be that there was no diving error involved in the case, and certainly he did not run out of gas. But another fatality in our local area in just a couple of weeks, and one where the "incident pit" clearly began with running very low on gas at depth, was more than I could take. I was distraught when I started this thread, but I still think the content is valuable.

I can relate to this. I've been involved in severe diving fatalities personally (and other serious diving accidents) and it changes the way you view the sport, the risks, the training, your faith in the gear and everything else about the sport. It is easy to get angry when you KNOW there is a better way and that relatively small changes in training and practices could have significant benefits.

 

[ScubaDocER]

OK, I went back and edited the original post to be very specific about what Peter was told he could not teach. Everybody happy now?

I still think it's a good idea for people to read Bob's article, and judging from the amount of thanks that disappeared when I edited the post, some other people did, too.

I was happy with the original post and the broader point I think you were trying to make. My thanks still stands and I wish I could put the thanks down twice. There may be a discrepancy between what Peter was told and what is actually true according to current PADI standards, but the bigger and I think more significant educational issue is the concept of gas planning and gas management. While the unfortunate death of the diver involved occurred as a result of drowning, the lack of appropriate gas management and gas awareness seems to have been the actual inciting event. I did not receive any true education regarding gas management until I took my cave diving course. In retrospect, that was WAY too late. I try to incorporate that into my OW courses, at least the rule of thirds; and a little deeper in the AOW course.

My second thanks would be for the article. Very informative. I don't think you should feel the need to correct what was conveyed to Peter. If that's what he was told, then that's what he was told. Issues regarding PADIs stand on teaching gas management can be resolved as the thread progresses. Your post was valid and poignant.

It is amazing that no matter how many times one sees and deals with emergencies in a professional capacity, it is still difficult and emotionally draining when they occur during a hobby and a sport that we love. Stay strong.

 

[udtfire]

the diffrence between an event and and emergency
event is something we train an practice for
an emergency is when we are not prepaired
so dive for and event not an emergency and train train train

rember you will not rise to the emergency but fall to the level of your training

 

[The Kraken]

Ladies and Gentlemen;

One part of the ScubaBoard mission is to provide sound and safe counsel to not only new divers, but also to experienced ones.

The author of this thread, in my opinion, generated this thread with good intention and in the best interest of new divers.

The ability to manage one's gas consmption and be aware of that consumption is of paramount importance in our hobby; the failure to learn or to understand gas management can lead to a disastrous end.

The author seeks only to give good advice to new divers to broaden their knowledge about their ability to understand this vital concept.

This thread is being reopened because of it's critical aspect in scuba diving.

I encourage you to enter into the discussion of gas management and how you feel it should be taught and at what stage in a diver's education it should be taught.

I also encourage you to discuss this in a civil and intelligent manner. There is no room here for personal argument or bickering.

Thank you.

The Kraken