I'm astonished with this SAC

[Thalassamania]

That about sums it. A sac rate of .25 is not really that big a deal, most comfortable divers can manage it if they don't mind the headache and the risk goes along. I've done it on occasion when I had to, but I hate it ... I aim for a sac rate of about 0.75 and just carry more air.

 

[SPG3K]

There is a George Irvine for every hobby, sport, career, or activity in general that exists in today's world.

The merits of GUE or DIR diving cannot be held responsible or judged harshly for the misgivings of one idiot, however intricately tied to said merits he may have been.

The people who are left in his wake to carry the torch, so to speak, are probably not really sad that he isn't actively diving or participating anymore.

 

[Thalassamania]

GUE and DIR could have been a lot more than it is, if GI3 had not made his "contribution." Hell ... all of diving might have been much better.

 

[Tigerman]

Ill have some popcorn and beer and watch the DIR divers have a go at eachother for a change

 

[Nemrod]

I know it had been a lot of discussions about SAC, but...

Last saturday I went reef diving to Cozumel (palancar) with my brother, and of course some other guys that we met on the boat that day, no one is gue or DIR oriented as I am, there was a guy maybe on his 65 years old with a big belly, out of shape, and the guy took 3 beers while the boat was reaching the site, once we were in the water I saw him on a feetdown position most of the time, since my brother was shooting his camera I use to follow him, we never went more than 25 meters deep, and then when I turned to see the other people I saw this guy 145 feet deep, I signaled to the guide about but he just say it was ok, Never tried to go down but keep on watching this guy, after 7 min he started an ascent with some deco stops, after 35 min I reached my min air and my brother and me started min deco, my dive lasted 41 min with an average depth of 23 m, once in the surface we waited 10 min to see the guide surfacing, and we spend another 30 min to wait to these guy that stayed solo on the water making a total of 92 min with just an al 80, I never thought I could see something like these!!


Did I say that he just had a lykra suit, no neoprene

How is that possible???!!! 92 min!!!??? spending 7 min at 145 feet??? with 3 beers on???
Looks like this smashed everything I had learn....Any thoughts???
Do I have so bad consumption??

Ya, ya know, those .15 skip breathing SAC rates do get to you if you down to many beers before a dive, it really puts a headache on. Where ever did I put those car keys.

Seriously, just like the thread on new gear being more EFFICIENT than "old" dive equipment from way back TWENTY years ago, blah, blah, why should a relatively new diver with all the fancy stuff think just because he is all shiny and new and knows all the cool DIR terms than some old, fat guy in a ragged lycra suit might not be a completely capable diver and fully at home in the water? Clearly, whatever might be said, this man was an efficient diver. It is the man (or woman) in the gear, it is not the gear. This horozontal feet up and arms out skydiving positon is good for balance and poking about but it is not the best way to cover ground like your old fellow demonstrated. More power to him.

N

 

[danvolker]

From the mouth of the "man" who represents the best of DIR/GUE:

Irvine is best damned by his own words:

"Rennaker, if you think sending e-mail to the state will get you into Wakulla, you're wrong... you are unqualified to dive Wakulla, you are unqualified to teach cave diving and you're an obvious stroke, and a huge fat slob. Your efforts to cause me problems have failed, and now I'm going to cause you as many problems as I can. 3-2-97

'Then (Bill) Stone comes in from DC... are you seeing the picture yet, dumb ****? We are not interested in seeing a goober come down here to Florida and trying to make a living teaching dangerous things to unsuspecting people. Bill, if you want to dive Wakulla, go try Leon Sinks first since your fat dumb ass could not get to first base there. By the way, I'm glad to see strokes like you avoid the NACD... now go over to your drawer and get out your revolver. Point it at your head, and just pull the trigger. Do it now." 3-2-97

"You have no clue what our scientific work is and it's none of your business and none of the cave community's business... Chris, it is five months until your stroke buddies are scheduled to dive in Wakulla: they have no working gear, have no divers, do no diving, and most of them have not stopped smoking, drinking or using pot. Trust me, *******, I will be who gets called to fish out the bodies and I will make a huge scene out of it." 4-28-97

"I straightened out DUI on EXACTLY who and what Green and Zumrick are... and gave a case history of both of these two, right down to the nitty gritty. I really have better things to do than deal with problems created by pot-smoking drunks and homosexuals." 4-30-97

"We could use some of Jim King's money, but not for this project, and we will not be obligated to anyone for anything. Nor could King make the cut to even put bottles in the water, the catfish might care him." 5-1-97

"We avoid publicity when diving in case something goes wrong... We do not care about diving feats, we know we are the best, and we know how tough we are. In fact, I can show anyone out there what tough is... if you think you're tough, come sit in the water with me for fifteen hours... while you freeze your weenie ass off... not the bull**** of Dr. Blarney (never done nothing) Stone or any of the other wannabees on his long list of strokes." 5-1-97

....lots more of non-relevant quoting.





Follow Ups:

First, George was never involved in GUE. George was involved in WKPP ( and was responsible for the safety of the team members) and the DIR concepts enforced in WKPP were all well explained and demonstrated to team members. And second, a point you are missing ( and nearly negligent in missing) is that in the mid and late 90's, there were many many deaths in the North florida Cave diving community, and most deaths were easily traced back to poor instruction and poor proceedures, as well as being tracked to individuals who were blatantly NOT properly mentally or physically prepared to be doing cave diving.
As an outsider to the events of the time, I suggest you do not know the "baggage" that Renaker and others carried with them, which led George to feel they represented a serious threat to life ---When Sheck died, due to the association and diving practices of a group George considered criminally negligent in their dive practices, I believe this began his quest to attempt to protect the uninformed from people that he felt would be actively be commiting negligent homicide by their actions. You do not have to agree that he was exactly correct in his assessment, but you do have to understand this was the mission he was on, and the method to get the word out was the Internet. The tech list, Cavers list, and rec.scuba were primary medias for this mission, and to effectively "carry" news on these, you needed a long thread, lots of explosiveness, and George did this better than anyone else ever, on the tech and cavers lists.
Also, the lists were to groups that were nothing like Scubaboard...not in the type of divers reading, not in the same Zeitgeist we are in today..this was a different time, and his missions and delivery is out of context today.

Also, George never did care much for people who attempted to pontificate as if they were some kind of "gentlemen professor"....he did not believe you had to tell a guy who was doing something stupid, " you know you really are a spectacular diver, but there is one little thing you might think about changing..." That was not the way for George, and that would also NEVER have been passed around the Internet.

Again, George took alot of common sense from the last 20 years or more of diving, hooked it all together into what became coined as DIR, and then mandated it to the WKPP. It was more my job to bring his DIR compilation to recreational divers on rec.scuba ( George might have posted on it 1 to 2 times, ever). Rec.scuba was more like scubaboard, in the reactions to DIR ideas, and to delivery of a message, and to the mix of diving skills on it. The tech list and Cavers were not really similar, even with the subgroupings on scubaboard. It was a "different medium", and disecting Georges posts now will not be understandible without the context at the time....

Describing George as poorly as you are, is a massive breakdown in scuba history--and typical in the "revisionist histories" of the World today.

Dan Volker

 

[SPG3K]

First, George was never involved in GUE. George was involved in WKPP ( and was responsible for the safety of the team members) and the DIR concepts enforced in WKPP were all well explained and demonstrated to team members. And second, a point you are missing ( and nearly negligent in missing) is that in the mid and late 90's, there were many many deaths in the North florida Cave diving community, and most deaths were easily traced back to poor instruction and poor proceedures, as well as being tracked to individuals who were blatantly NOT properly mentally or physically prepared to be doing cave diving.
As an outsider to the events of the time, I suggest you do not know the "baggage" that Renaker and others carried with them, which led George to feel they represented a serious threat to life ---When Sheck died, due to the association and diving practices of a group George considered criminally negligent in their dive practices, I believe this began his quest to attempt to protect the uninformed from people that he felt would be actively be commiting negligent homicide by their actions. You do not have to agree that he was exactly correct in his assessment, but you do have to understand this was the mission he was on, and the method to get the word out was the Internet. The tech list, Cavers list, and rec.scuba were primary medias for this mission, and to effectively "carry" news on these, you needed a long thread, lots of explosiveness, and George did this better than anyone else ever, on the tech and cavers lists.
Also, the lists were to groups that were nothing like Scubaboard...not in the type of divers reading, not in the same Zeitgeist we are in today..this was a different time, and his missions and delivery is out of context today.

Also, George never did care much for people who attempted to pontificate as if they were some kind of "gentlemen professor"....he did not believe you had to tell a guy who was doing something stupid, " you know you really are a spectacular diver, but there is one little thing you might think about changing..." That was not the way for George, and that would also NEVER have been passed around the Internet.

Again, George took alot of common sense from the last 20 years or more of diving, hooked it all together into what became coined as DIR, and then mandated it to the WKPP. It was more my job to bring his DIR compilation to recreational divers on rec.scuba ( George might have posted on it 1 to 2 times, ever). Rec.scuba was more like scubaboard, in the reactions to DIR ideas, and to delivery of a message, and to the mix of diving skills on it. The tech list and Cavers were not really similar, even with the subgroupings on scubaboard. It was a "different medium", and disecting Georges posts now will not be understandible without the context at the time....

Describing George as poorly as you are, is a massive breakdown in scuba history--and typical in the "revisionist histories" of the World today.

Dan Volker

I understand exactly what you are saying - but look at this way, for an extreme example.

The remarks made by Hitler and Stalin may be "out of context" in 2008, but the message still comes across in the exact same manner, and it's still just as ****** up.

The conduct displayed in what I've seen of that man is not justified in any manner by anything that was happening at that time. Screaming and yelling, cussing and throwing a fit to anyone who will listen has been an internet thing since it's inception. He didn't patent it, or coin a new internet debate procedure by doing it.

Hes another in the long line of internet/forum loudmouths with good ideas and HORRIBLE execution.

I don't need the original context, hes still a (male genitalia). All the context proves is that he was yelling for some reason that he felt justified his ridiculous rants.

People have been ranting and posting 35 page personal attacks since the first days of AOL. His statements are not justified down the road because of the "nature of the internet/diving environment" at that point in time.

Reading said context would just show you whose turn it was (in a long list) of internet folks to get the rant treatment from someone via elecrtonic communications.

 

[Nemrod]

Well, in defense of the "personality" some people just do not translate well into the internet virtual world. Not a name drop at all, long, long ago, when I was fond of diving in those boring caves till I realized how boring they actually are I had come across the "personality" and he was best I could tell, a very nice and knowledgeable bloke. Take it for what it is worth. N

 

[danvolker]

I understand exactly what you are saying - but look at this way, for an extreme example.

The remarks made by Hitler and Stalin may be "out of context" in 2008, but the message still comes across in the exact same manner, and it's still just as ****** up.

The conduct displayed in what I've seen of that man is not justified in any manner by anything that was happening at that time. Screaming and yelling, cussing and throwing a fit to anyone who will listen has been an internet thing since it's inception. He didn't patent it, or coin a new internet debate procedure by doing it.

Apparently you have never been to a Redneck Bar. If you are tallking to certain "groups" of people, the "way" your message is phrased better be closer to George's message, or there will be no thought other than ridicule, given to the "polite" idea.


Again, the personalities were different back then. And his Internet personna was nothing like George in person ( most of the time

.......
Also.....if you are married, imagine there was an instructor who was teaching your wife cave or tech courses. You find out he has just put her in catastrophic jeopardy---although she survived, and has convinced her to do and even stupider dive plan tommorow. The question then, is how far do you have a "DUTY" and desire to go, to stop this guy before ( in your mind) he gets your wife killed, and how far should you escalate this to make sure this guy does not kill anyone in the next weeks or months, with the behaviors you KNOW he is utilizing.
I can show real examples of this, and many of them. This was not just isolated incidents, and a great many of George's predictions did in fact, come true--deaths resulted, many of them, from just exactly the planning and behavior he had exploded about.
Why "should" you be nice to a guy who is threatening the life of one of your loved ones, or even just a friend, or acquaintence. What possible "right" does the instructor have, to perform what you feel you KNOW is catastrophicaly dangerous?

I believe, such a person should be treated as scum. Perhaps you believe that everyone EXCEPT George is inhernetly a nice person, and should always be given the benefit of the doubt.....I believe, that in the dive industry, there are lots of great people, and plenty of greedy, selfish people, that are inhernetly bad more often than they are good. You have to figure out what side of the continuum each dive person is in, and treat them accordingly. I would be as comfortable killing a child molestor and rapist as I would be a cockroach, and I believe our current system of justice for such matters has nothing to do with "Justice", and everything to do with expedience and income for the prison corporations. If you want "justice", it would be rare that an expectation that the system would deliver it for you would occur...thus, if you needed justice for your wife or your child, you would be a fool not to take personal stake in the matter, and find a way to actually search out Justice.

George aspired to prevent many more deaths, before they were perpetrated. This does NOT make him a Hitler or a stalin. Perhaps he made demeaning comments about someone you know--I do not know why you have such an axe to grind with him. What I do know is that you have missed the motivations, and you have missed the piotential solutions that were available at the time----since no one else stepped up to the plate for many of the issues we are discussing, apparently George was the only one up to playing his part in protecting student divers.

Regards,

Dan Volker

 

[Derek S]

Sorry to dredge up an old thread, but I also wanted to comment/expand on something Dan said. One of my fondest diving memories wasn't actually a dive at all. It was meeting and then going to dinner with a group that included JJ and GI3. Listening to the two of them reminiscing over past dives was not only entertaining, but quite informative. Also, I can understand the need for a brunt nature when getting across the facts as far as safety is concerned. The dives that were being attempted by the WKPP and other people back in those days were fraught with complications every step of the way. They HAD to be on the same page, or people were going to get seriously hurt or worse.

I'd be willing to say that a lot of George's responses have been taken way out of context. Not only that, but knowing the instant bravado that the anonymity of the Internet provides, I wouldn't be surprised one bit if there were many out there who went out with the sole purpose of eliciting those kinds of responses from him.

And SPG3K - Don't you think comparing GI3 to Hitler and Stalin is going just a wee tad overboard?