Independent Twins

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Doc Intrepid:
Thats two reg switches that must be made using independent doubles that need not be made if using a manifold.

That's "more complex".

Start carrying two deco bottles, get involved with some unscheduled excitement, and that requirement adds task loading. Added task loading is seldom a desirable benefit from any equipment configuration.

I don't see that. If the feces hit the fan you only task is to find breathable gas. If you planned your reg switches you will have adequate gas to return to deco stop following rule of thirds. No need to access any more gas than the amount you came in with.
Remebering to switch regs is automatic after a while. Like saying driving a standard vehicle is task loading. You just don't think about it happens.

Doc Intrepid:
Depending on what sort of dive it is, e.g. whether you're in an overhead environment, whether you've staged bottles, or you've built up a deco obligation, if something happens to one side you may not have access to any of the remaining gas on that one side.
Ever dive side mount?

Doc Intrepid:
If something happens on one side to a set of manifolded doubles, you generally still have access to the entire quantity of backgas through the other post. Depending on where you are when you have the problem, what sort of dive you're doing, you might need access to all your remaining backgas.
rule of thirds with independant:
1/3 tank A switch to tank B then breath 1/3, turn dive continue to breath tank B until 1/3 remain then switch to tank A again and breath remaining 1/3. If no drama occurs you end up with 1/3 in each tank. If SHF you lose one tank you end dive with both tanks empty but alive. I am so used to this method that I close my isolator when diving manifolded doubles. I have tried the other method. Maybe you should try mine Doc :wink:
 
wedivebc,

I use the method you describe when diving independant doubles - it works very well for me.

It's nice to just pack some bands and a few tools I always take on dive trips anyway and yet be able to have doubles to use when traveling. I have had ZERO luck with the 'travel bands' designs that use plastic and web belt configurations working well for me - but a decent pair of 7.25" bands & bolts is neither heavy nor bulky to pack along with my wing(s), fins, etc. for traveling.

And, like you, I can switch between which second stage I'm breathing from just like switching between driving vehicles with automatic and manual transmissions easily, even if it's been years since driving a 'stick' - as long as the steering wheel's on the proper left-hand side of the vehicle - I've owned both 'three on a tree' as well as 'four (or five) on the floor' vehicles, as well as 'slush-o-matics'.

I haven't dived sidemount yet, but would be willing to give it a try some time.
 
There are tradeoffs either way.

With a isolator manifold preservation of your gas supply absolutely depends on being able to promptly shut off the isolator and/or the post with the failed regulator depending on the type of failure. Some action is required or you will lose all your gas in the event of a freeflow. This then requires that you identify where the bubbles are coming from behind your head and close the proper valve(s) to stop them. If it is "just" a regulator freeflow isolator manifolded doubles offer the advantage of allowing you to access all your remaining gas. If on the other hand it is a burst disc, neck o-ring failure, or a failure in one side of the manifold, you are essentially where you would be with independent doubles anyway.

With independent doubles action to stop the freeflow is desireable, but is not absolutely required in the event a free flow develops. Proper gas plannning will ensure that the 1/3 to 2/3rd gas supply remaining in the non offending tank will be adequate to get you either to the surface or to the deco stop where you change to your first deco gas. In practice it is not as serious a limitation as many divers would think.

If the malfunction is due to a freeze up of the first stage (the most likely failure encountered in extremely cold water) shutting off the valve will stop the freeflow and in a minute or so the reg will thaw and the gas in that tank will again be accessible.

My current preference is to use 1/3 out of the right tank (long hose) then switch to the left tank and use 2/3 rds of that tank. That reduces the reg switches to two - one well before the turn point and one well after the turn point. It also leaves me ending the dive on the right tank with more gas in the right tank and available through the long hose in the event I have to share gas near the end of the dive with an OOA diver.

Operationally they are very flexible. If I am doing a deep/long technical dive requiring the extra gas I dive them as independent doubles and use both tanks. If it is a shorter rec dive with my spousal unit and/or other recreational divers, I dive the right tank (long hose) as a single tank and the left tank is essentially a super sized pony bottle that also offers redundant bouyancy by feeding my drysuit. At the end of a recreational dive, I then only have to change out 1 tank.

Travel is a breeze as I can use garden variety rental tanks and do not have to worry about doubles availability or hope a sympathetic shop owner will let me devalve his tanks and add a manifold.

The extra SPG and the two reg switches are in my opinion not a factor. If the slight increase in task loading that results is a problem for a diver, they have more serious problems already in that they are pushing it way to close to the edge of their ability envelope anyway. It does force the diver to pay attention to gas planning and gas management but those are things that should be occurring on any technical dive anyway and are not "extra" demands.
 
I agree that the steel band is much more secure than the travel band though.
What brand of travel band have you used? Mine is Aqua Explorer band with the plastic buckles that might not be a good for the cold water diving. It works fine with AL 80s.



WarmWaterDiver:
It's nice to just pack some bands and a few tools I always take on dive trips anyway and yet be able to have doubles to use when traveling. I have had ZERO luck with the 'travel bands' designs that use plastic and web belt configurations working well for me - but a decent pair of 7.25" bands & bolts is neither heavy nor bulky to pack along with my wing(s), fins, etc. for traveling.


So, how much air do you leave on both tank at the end of diving? I used to remain 500 psi each AL 80 tank.

DA Aquamaster:
With independent doubles action to stop the freeflow is desireable, but is not absolutely required in the event a free flow develops. Proper gas plannning will ensure that the 1/3 to 2/3rd gas supply remaining in the non offending tank will be adequate to get you either to the surface or to the deco stop where you change to your first deco gas. In practice it is not as serious a limitation as many divers would think.
 
My plastic & webbing thingie is also a pre-owned Aqua Explorer band - I'm really glad I didn't buy a brand new one, or that the wife didn't buy me a new one for my birthday before I bought the used one.

I'm kinda on double-secret probabtion for dive gear accumulation currently - like someone else posted recently. We're being transferred, and she made me put all the dive stuff I got a good deal on, that then didn't work out for whatever I was trying to do, in one big box as she was cleaning the bedroom which was an office but became 'the scuba gear room' while we lived in this house. Once we get resettled at a new address, I'll be putting it up for sale - all of it that went in that one big box. That's where my AE kit is. Someone else can make good use of this stuff maybe.

I don't dive cold water, so freeze-up freeflows haven't been a concern for me. I often dive independant doubles on plain old recreational dive profiles, and stay within no-deco limits, when we're doing photography and such. My petite wife / dive buddy has about half the RMV I do, so it works well, and we don't do this when diving from boats with groups who need to stick to a schedule. More for when we're shore or boat diving either by ourselves or with just the DM. it gives a nice mix of time at deeper depth as well as extended time at shallower depths on a multi-level profile. One of the best applications I experienced for this approach was when we dove Angel City and the Hilma Hooker as one dive together on Bonaire - enter at Angel City, do the outer reef, then go to the Hilma Hooker, exit at the Hooker, unharness on shore, and I wait by the gear while the wife walks back to the truck, and drives over to load up and go back for a snack and a SI. This works really well if she dives one 63 ft3 and I dive with two 63 ft3 tanks. She's petite and prefers 63's. Or, if she dives one 63ft3 and I dive two 50ft3, if that's available. it just depends. Or, sometimes I do this with two 80 ft3 and exit with more gas remaining. And yes, for no-deco-obligation dives, at least 500 psi in each of our 3 tanks at the end of the dive.

I also did one of my tech cert checkout dives using independant doubles, the others were all with pre-manifolded doubles. Worked well both ways.

I do keep the reg switches to 2 - just like wedivebc wrote. If doing deco-obligation dives, absolutely, turn after using 1/3 of the gas from each tank, but that doesn't necessitate a reg switch when you turn back - just keep breathing from the second tank until 2/3 of the gas is gone from it. Then, I do the second switch after 2/3 gone from the second tank, back to the tank only 1/3 was used from - the tank I began the dive with.
 
Here is an independent doubles situation to think about:

I came across two divers breathing off the doubles. One was OOA and the other was sharing with the reg from one of the two tanks. They had a deco obligation. The tank the OOA diver was breathing from was the one the other diver was not using, so it was the one with the least air -- he beathed down one to a set point and then went over to the other. The result was that the tank was close to depletion, the tanks were off balance, and therefore the divers were, the non-OOA diver was looking at his gas supply, but not noticing that the other was close to empty. The OOA diver was about to be OOA again.

Fortunately I was able to put the OOA diver on my gas and free the other diver to complete his ascent...(the OOA diver still had a deco obligation).

Without someone coming along, imagine the two trying to buddy breathe off of the remaining tank in a hightened state of anxiety...recipe for ?

It is this kind of circumstance, where having an unbalanced rig with two spg's and two independent sources of air to keep track of that present more problems with the independent doubles. On a normal dive it doesn't make any difference.

Jerry
 
Were both divers using doubles? I'm at a bit of a loss, if each was using 2 tanks, 4 total between the 2 of them, and if the rule of thirds was applied, using the diver with the higher RMV for calculation of turn pressure, how they wound up with only enough gas for one diver to make the deco obligation on the remaining gas? The ingredients for the recipe were all already there before you came along - and how would manifolded doubles have changed their situation for available gas supply? There has to be a bit more to the story here I think - any more details?

Note I posted my RMV is double my wife / dive partner - so our turn calcs are always based on my consumption rate.
 
jerryn:
Here is an independent doubles situation to think about:

I came across two divers breathing off the doubles. One was OOA and the other was sharing with the reg from one of the two tanks. They had a deco obligation. The tank the OOA diver was breathing from was the one the other diver was not using, so it was the one with the least air -- he beathed down one to a set point and then went over to the other. The result was that the tank was close to depletion, the tanks were off balance, and therefore the divers were, the non-OOA diver was looking at his gas supply, but not noticing that the other was close to empty. The OOA diver was about to be OOA again.

Fortunately I was able to put the OOA diver on my gas and free the other diver to complete his ascent...(the OOA diver still had a deco obligation).

Without someone coming along, imagine the two trying to buddy breathe off of the remaining tank in a hightened state of anxiety...recipe for ?

It is this kind of circumstance, where having an unbalanced rig with two spg's and two independent sources of air to keep track of that present more problems with the independent doubles. On a normal dive it doesn't make any difference.

Jerry

How could you tell all of this if you just happen to come up on the situation? Sounds fishy to me.
As was already stated, they screwed up long before you came upon them with poor gas management.

Jason
 
Here's a hypothetical for the manifold guys. You are at the turn point in your dive with 2/3 remaining in each tank. A failure occurs on the left side that causes total loss of gas (valve 0-ring, burst disk, what ever) You take 30 seconds to shut down so you know you have lost some gas. Your left post is unavailable so you don't know how much (since your 1 spg is shut off) just that you have less than 1/3 to get to safety.
So far this discussion has not involved buddy's gas supply so let's assume it's not available. Here is a situation where independants clearly come out the winner.
BTW I have my tech students remove a LP hose and let gas freeflow for 60 seconds then do the same thing with a HP hose and measure the difference in gas loss. LP loses many times more so SPG failure is not a big issue
 
wedivebc:
So far this discussion has not involved buddy's gas supply so let's assume it's not available.


then you deserve to drown? hehehe

anyway, here's my question:

how would independents help you anyway? your left tank is gone, and your
right tank has *some* gas. how is knowing exactly how much (by using your
gauge) going to help the situation any?
 
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