Input on thermal protection needed?!

[1000RR]

So my daughter and I are learning as we go, as everyone else has. My hope is to not make expensive mistakes (ie. buying all kinds of thermal protection we don't need/won't wear). Our diving is going to be the waters around Florida which will be Gulf and Atlantic in the Southern half of the State with some (not very often) diving in a Spring or two (72 degree). Yesterday we went hunting for Meg teeth off of S. Venice again. Bottom temp was a balmy 56F (1st time diving that cold of water). Here's what we concluded. Dives were about 45-50 minutes each (3 of them). Our feet hurt by the end of the dives. Our hands were freezing. I was shivering at depth (more on that later) but she seemed decent core-wise.

What we wore:

ME:

• 6/5/4 semi dry w/hood that was loaned to me that was 2 sizes too big (I know - that was the biggest contributing factor to my cold... but I kept my daughter warm!).
• 5mm harder soled boots, zip up on the size.
• summer type gloves... better than nothing, but not by much.

DAUGHTER:

• 3mm Bare Wetsuit, seals nicely arms and legs and neck
  
• 3/5 hooded vest, sealed really well (I have one too, but didn't wear it since I borrowed the semi-dry that wasn't so semi dry).
• I let her wear my 3mm long sleeve shorty over all that.
• 5mm harder soled boots, zip up on the side.
• summer type gloves

End result was both our feets were freezing cold, hurt by end of dive. Hands were freezing as well. I was shivering close to the entire time at depth except when I was finding teeth haha. She said she might have been chilly but didn't seem to be shivering at depth.

So here's what I'm thinking.

• Buying a two piece Mako open cell suit. In a future cold(er) type dive, I would wear the Mako pants (or farmer john) with my hooded vest (already have) on top of that and my long sleeve shorty (already have) on top of that.
• Buy some colder water gloves (5mm) for both of us. Mako also sells some of those, don't know much about them though.
• Buy some 5mm neoprene dive socks for both of us (Mako sells those too) and wear those inside our 5mm hard soled boots.
• Since my daughter wouldn't have my shorty any longer (I'd be wearing it), she could wear the top piece of the 2-piece Mako suit I buy on the outside of her wetsuit. And that would give her core the same/similar thermal protection she had yesterday. Her biggest issue was feet and hands... mine was - everything (because suit didn't fit correctly).

Any thoughts? Again, the goal is not to go out and buy crazy amounts of thermal protection but rather compliment what we already have the best we can (not interested in shelling out the money for dry suits at this point since most of our diving is warmer water for the time being). We're good as far as our summer & fall diving... we just wanted something more for the few months of the winter when we see low 70's on the Atlantic side and high 50's or 60's for our once or twice a winter dive on the Gulf side for Meg teeth. My daughter is probably OK already for low 70's on the Atlantic side, but the high 50's she probably needs that core a little more insulated like she did yesterday.

 

[tbone1004]

• problem with the open cell suits is that while they are nice and warm, they are a right PITA to don and doff because they stick to your skin. I also really don't like farmer johns. A proper fitting 5mm wetsuit with a 3/5mm hooded vest will do just fine. You already have the hooded vests, so grab a good 5mm and you'll be good to go
• I don't like 5mm gloves, too restrictive. 3mm is all I wear down to the 60's and while my hands are quite cold, I find the dexterity worth it. Grab some handwarmers for the surface
• 5mm socks are unlikely to fit inside of your boots unfortunately. They may, but most wetsuit boots are pretty snug. Better thing there is to get the leg cuff of your suit over the boot so you limit water ingress

This is the suit that I dive, and it is perfect for extended diving in the 70ish degree temps, and I've dove it for probably 3 hours in the low 60's without a hooded vest and was a bit chilly by the end, but that was a long dive and I was teaching so was mostly stationary. Since you already have the 3mm's, it's a good step up without spending too much money and enough of a step in my opinion over a 5mm where the difference between a 3mm and a 5mm is too small if you already have one or the other.
65 Diving Semi-Dry Wetsuit | OThree Custom Drysuits

 

[1000RR]

• problem with the open cell suits is that while they are nice and warm, they are a right PITA to don and doff because they stick to your skin. I also really don't like farmer johns. A proper fitting 5mm wetsuit with a 3/5mm hooded vest will do just fine. You already have the hooded vests, so grab a good 5mm and you'll be good to go

• I've heard/read this. Was wondering if wearing a full lycra suit would help this challenge?!
  
  

  [*]I don't like 5mm gloves, too restrictive. 3mm is all I wear down to the 60's and while my hands are quite cold, I find the dexterity worth it. Grab some handwarmers for the surface

  Good to know on the gloves. Our summer gloves are equivalent to not a whole lot, so even 3mm would be good! I heard handwarmers too... so I'll definitely have to get some of those!
  
  

  [*]5mm socks are unlikely to fit inside of your boots unfortunately. They may, but most wetsuit boots are pretty snug. Better thing there is to get the leg cuff of your suit over the boot so you limit water ingress

  Our boots are not too tight right now... foot can move in them a bit... and has room. The initial reason for getting them is our instructor required them along with the opened healed fins since our dives were beach type entry either to salt or a spring. We ensured the leg cuff of the suit was down all the way as far as it would go down the zipper/boot so no more room for better results in that context. Maybe try dive socks?

This is the suit that I dive, and it is perfect for extended diving in the 70ish degree temps, and I've dove it for probably 3 hours in the low 60's without a hooded vest and was a bit chilly by the end, but that was a long dive and I was teaching so was mostly stationary. Since you already have the 3mm's, it's a good step up without spending too much money and enough of a step in my opinion over a 5mm where the difference between a 3mm and a 5mm is too small if you already have one or the other.
65 Diving Semi-Dry Wetsuit | OThree Custom Drysuits

I will look into this for sure... open to all suggestions. One good thing about buying a two piece (in my mind anyway) was it gave my daughter the one piece she needed (an additional upper/core piece) and me the one I need - the bottom below my shorty... as well as additional core.

 

[tbone1004]

@1000RR the lycra suit would, but then it adds cost and defeats the purpose of buying an unlined wetsuit in the first place which is it sticking to your skin to minimze water transfer.

handwarmers on the surface are good, don't take them in the water obviously. 3mm gloves are probably the ticket. Hands will still be cold, but shouldn't be frozen.

On the neo socks. Go to Cabelas, they have low cost neoprene socks. Same quality but half the price of the ones from NRS or any of the dive companies. Bring your wetsuit booties with you to check fit. Was the leg cuff of the suit over or under the boot? A lot of people put it under the boot, but that allows more water to go in.

other option vs. buying a new suit is to look at a thicker hooded vest and try to keep it to the 3mm suit with maybe a 7/5mm hooded vest

 

[1000RR]

@tbone1004 - So what I don't know is how my daughter would have been with just her 3mm suit and 3/5 hooded vest (she had my longsleeve shorty on top of all that). Not sure if my shorty did much for her or not...

We had the cuffs over the top of the boots to keep water from entering. The boots have what appears to be little vents in the arch area of the sole... so maybe water can drain out (and maybe enter too?)? The boots are these --> Click HERE

Going to the thicker vest could help for her if her current setup OR she could just continue to use my shorty over everything if I were to purchase a 5mm suit?!

 

[scubadada]

Hi @1000RR

This is what I wrote in What is your seasonal thermal insulation? "I dive in Boynton Beach, West Palm, and Jupiter year round. The water temp varies between the mid-80s in summer to the low 70s, sometimes even high 60s in the winter. I dive a full 3mm down to the high 70s, dive a 5mm low 70s to high 70s, and dive a 7mm low 70s and lower. I add a 5/3 hooded vest to whatever I'm diving if I get cold, adds a couple of degrees. I dive year round, simply dress appropriately. My wonderful TruWest boat coat gets a good workout late fall through spring and whenever it's particularly windy." The diving in SE Florida, mostly drift diving, often, does not involve a lot of vigorous swimming, increasing the need for adequate thermal protection.

Thermal protection is a personal choice, this is what works for me. I also dive in San Diego, where the bottom temp is usually in the low 50s. There, I wear my 7mm, 5/3 hooded vest, 5mm gloves and booties. I do fine for 2 or 3 dives between 45 min and an hour. If the water gets down to the high 40s, I get cold. If I rountinely dived water like that, it would be a drysuit for me.

I'm with @tbone1004, I don't like wearing heavy gloves, often don't wear any unless I get cold. Almost always wear 3mm except for very cold water, as mentioned above. I find that if I am warm, my hands don't tend to get cold either.

Lately, I've been considering getting a 7/5mm hooded vest as one more flexible addition to my thermal protection armamentarium. I wear all I mentioned every year and am frequently the only warm diver on the boat. In my opinion, this ends up being a wise investment.

 

[1000RR]

Hey @scubadada, Happy New Year... we still need to plan to hook up down South in the coming months!

Thanks for the insight. I don't think I'll be able to flip the bill for buying a couple new/additional wetsuits right now, but could coordinate something over and above what we have right now... so that's really what I'm trying to figure out. Not so much what the "perfect world" is but rather - are there small changes (investments) I can make right now that would/could keep us diving somewhat comfortable the rest of the winter.

We obviously have to do something about our hands and feet. So I'm hearing a consensus that 3mm gloves are a good option, throw some handwarmers onboard for topside. For feet, it seems we need to probably get some neoprene socks, as we already have 5mm boots that aren't cutting it in that (56 degree) cold of water. At 74 degrees we were OK for both hands and feet (no gloves, same boots). My daughter said she was ok w/her 3mm and 5/3 hooded vest along w/my shorty over all that on the 56 degree dive. I'm the wild card in all this since I haven't had the chance to wear what I have but know that without lower extremeties covered, I'm not going to be happy. So I need something for the lower half.

It seems like maybe the following might be the least expensive for my daughter and I right now - let me know what you guys think:

• Get 3mm gloves and neoprene socks for both of us
• In really cold water 60's and below, let her wear the same thing she did yesterday - her 3mm full, 5/3 hooded vest, and my 3mm long sleeve shorty. In 56, she said she probably had slight shivers at the end, but not crazy bad or anything.
• For me, since she'd have my 3mm shorty, I might consider buying a 5mm wetsuit and wear my 5/3 hood under that.

The bolded items are the new items I'd need to purchase. Seem like a plan?

 

[MAKO Spearguns]

• problem with the open cell suits is that while they are nice and warm, they are a right PITA to don and doff because they stick to your skin. I also really don't like farmer johns. A proper fitting 5mm wetsuit with a 3/5mm hooded vest will do just fine. You already have the hooded vests, so grab a good 5mm and you'll be good to go
• I don't like 5mm gloves, too restrictive. 3mm is all I wear down to the 60's and while my hands are quite cold, I find the dexterity worth it. Grab some handwarmers for the surface
• 5mm socks are unlikely to fit inside of your boots unfortunately. They may, but most wetsuit boots are pretty snug. Better thing there is to get the leg cuff of your suit over the boot so you limit water ingress

This is the suit that I dive, and it is perfect for extended diving in the 70ish degree temps, and I've dove it for probably 3 hours in the low 60's without a hooded vest and was a bit chilly by the end, but that was a long dive and I was teaching so was mostly stationary. Since you already have the 3mm's, it's a good step up without spending too much money and enough of a step in my opinion over a 5mm where the difference between a 3mm and a 5mm is too small if you already have one or the other.
65 Diving Semi-Dry Wetsuit | OThree Custom Drysuits

The comment about open cell suits being difficult to put on is not really applicable if the diver does it properly.

In fact, freedive suits with no zippers and no nylon liner are really very easy to don, IF and this is a big IF, the diver uses a suit lubricant.

The lubricant makes the suit slip on easily and effortlessly and it also allows the suit to slide a little and adjust itself to the divers shape. Applying suit lubricant is an extra necessary step, but it takes a few moments and then once applied, the actual process of putting on the suit is really very easy.

Since this requires a unique technique we've made a video to show exactly how to don the suit. Our model is doing it really slowly for demonstration purposes, but after a few times, it will take you very little time and there is no struggling with the suit.


To be completely honest, removing the jacket requires a little care and two techiques can be used. This video shows the "solo" method and also the buddy method. Most of us dive with a buddy, so it is really unusual for most people not to be able to ask a buddy to help turn the jacket inside out. This video shows how to take it off:


For water like the OP described, I would recommend a 5 mm suit. We offer 3 and 7 mm suits as well, but 5 is probably most practical for those temperatures.

I can address the issue of cold feet as well. The divers feet don't get cold just from cool water, but rather the diver's body gets cooled, the body responds by shunting blood (circulation) away from the hands and feet and without a good supply of (warm) blood, the feet will get cold! So try to keep your body warm if you feet and hands are getting chilled.

One suggestion, for scuba divers who use a zippered boot and an open heel, adjustable fin. If you add a 3 mm neoprene sock under the boot, it does not take up much room and it will make a big difference in warmth - and you get to keep your old booties. Our low cut socks are quite inexpensive:

Yamamoto Freedive Socks 2mm Low Cut | MAKO Spearguns

We also offer cold water gloves, thicker socks and about anything else you might need for thermal protection.

Thanks
Dano

 

[KevinNM]

How much people feel the cold is very personal. I saw a girl diving with layered 7mm suits on the same boat as a guy diving in cutoffs and a T-shirt. So what other people do is a good start, but if you feel cold add more protection regardless of what other people are wearing. Diving cold sucks.

 

[outofofficebrb]

How much people feel the cold is very personal. I saw a girl diving with layered 7mm suits on the same boat as a guy diving in cutoffs and a T-shirt. So what other people do is a good start, but if you feel cold add more protection regardless of what other people are wearing. Diving cold sucks.

I was in Lembeh in October and there was a woman in a 7mm semi-dry and she also had an 8mm vest over. In case you're keeping track, that's 15mm in the core and the water was probably low to mid 80's. Heh! She said she was cold...and I thought I ran cold

For the OP @1000RR , I think getting a 5mm and adding a hooded vest is a good option. Having a wetsuit that fits well as you've already stated will go a long way and I think you will find a lot of opportunity to use the 5mm in Florida or even abroad. 5mm is my workhorse and I also travel with a hooded vest just in case, especially for back to back days of diving or cooler upwellings. It's quite hard to feel too warm in a wetsuit in-water and it's easy enough to flood it, for me at least. I always err on the side of being warmer because being cold is not good on a dive.

For gloves, I have the Aqua Lung Ava gloves. I hate wearing gloves too and if I'm going to bother, it's probably quite cold and if I'm going to bother, I want to be toasty. Those are 6mm and are pretty inexpensive. What do I hate wearing the most? Hoods...but when you're cold, you're cold.

PS...1000RR as in the motorcycle or something else?