Instructor Responsibilty in Continuing Education (Split from Catalina Death)

[CompuDude]

There a *LOT* of room between week end BOW course and the 100 Scripps course.

Churning out barely trained divers in order to sell them their first set of gear hasn't been all that great for the industry.

How many of these new divers scare themselves silly on their first dive out side of class and throw in the towel?

How many just don't really have any fun because of their lack of confidence and quit diving?

Fewer, better trained divers that actually keep diving will, IMO help to grow the sport, as current active divers are the main evangelists for the sport.

100 hour classes for everybody? Probably not, but it's hard to argue that longer, more though classes have no merit.

Tobin

When did I say anything to lead anyone to think I disagree with any of that?

 

[cool_hardware52]

When did I say anything to lead anyone to think I disagree with any of that?

Here, for starters:

Right, by "your" I meant the Scripps courses you teach and promote.

Dive shop's need to make a living is indeed not your concern (sort of... see below), but it's in the best interest of everyone to make sure that there actually are some dive shops out there to keep us supplied in gear, and with gas.

Tobin

 

[CompuDude]

Here, for starters:

Tobin

So you actually disagree with this statement:

"It's in the best interest of everyone to make sure that there actually are some dive shops out there to keep us supplied in gear, and with gas."

Really? You disagree?

Or "Dive shop's need to make a living is not [Thal's] concern". Is that what you disagree with? (I believe he just said that very thing in the post I was responding to)

Or do you disagree with my comment that Thal teaches and promotes the Scripps model courses? (I'm fairly sure he does)

Because those are the things you just quoted as support.

Each of those are simple statements that do not give ANY indication of my opinion on rushed "weekend BOW courses".

In fact, in the same post you quoted from I said "I wish it were otherwise..."

And a few posts before that, I was recommending Tom Wetzel for OW courses.

I still have no idea how you leap to the conclusion that I am "pro" rushed basic weekend OW courses. I certainly never said I was in favor of them, or said anything along the lines of "one weekend is plenty of time for all the instruction a diver needs".

[NOTE: THOSE LAST TWO SENTENCES ARE SARCASM, LEST THERE BE ANY DOUBT]

 

[Thalassamania]

Just to be clear:

1. Convenient gas supply is, just that, convenient ... but far from necessary.
2. The LDS model has changed in the past, is in great transition at the moment, and we have no idea where it is going ... ride with it, that's all you can do, and accept the fact that all transitions are wrenching experiences.
3. You're DIRish ... if there is one thing that all of DIRdum and I agree on it is the inadequacy of the BOW courses, no confusion there.
4. Tom is AOK.
5. LAC ADP is AOK.

 

[CompuDude]

Just to be clear:

1. Convenient gas supply is, just that, convenient ... but far from necessary.
2. The LDS model has changed in the past, is in great transition at the moment, and we have no idea where it is going ... ride with it, that's all you can do, and accept the fact that all transitions are wrenching experiences.
3. You're DIRish ... if there is one thing that all of DIRdum and I agree on it is the inadequacy of the BOW courses, no confusion there.
4. Tom is AOK.
5. LAC ADP is AOK.

Just in case that's directed towards me (I *think* it was):

1) "Convenient gas supply" gains more and more importance the harder it becomes to get fills. If your gas supply is not limited to your local dive shops, bully for you, but that's not the case for much of the rest of us. I would very much like to keep up my current frequency of diving, but I don't have the money, the space (or the spousal permission) to set up my own compressor and mixing station.

2) No argument with that. I just hope that some of the features I appreciate about the current system make it through to whatever comes next. (if the future proves you right)

3) DIRish. LOL I like that.

4-5) You bet!

 

[Thalassamania]

You may find that as LDS disappear more convenient alternatives crop up. I can remember when guys used to cart compressors around behind their truck and sell fills right there at the local dive sites.

 

[openmindOW]

I think the learner's permit argument is an industry cop out. Of course you keep learning, but a learners permit is predicated on performing the actual function ONLY when accompanied by someone who is more competent than you are, diver certification is for similar conditions with a SIMILARLY TRAINED AND SKILLED BUDDDY!

Thank you, Thall, for taking the time to answer my hypothetical.

Obviously, we will have thousands divers every year who will seek recreational AOW training. You are willing, it appears, to refer potential students to recreational Instructors whom you trust.

The AOW Instructor receives students and takes them as he or she gets them. It's a risky thing to do, especially in light of the poor training that some OW students get.

As for the Learners Permit issue, you make a good point. Maybe it is an industry cop-out.

 

[openmindOW]

There a *LOT* of room between week end BOW course and the 100 Scripps course.

That's the crux, isn't it?

 

[openmindOW]

I think that the current dive shop model is a zombie that doesn't know that it is dead yet. What exactly it will be replaced with is not completely clear . . . .

It's off-topic a bit, but I think you are on to something there.

Except for resort areas - there will probably always be a market for resort area dive shops.

 

[stedel]

I suspect we might all agree that more thorough and complete training would be better for every diver. I suspect we might all agree that were all of our soldiers trained to the level of Navy Seals or Army Rangers or some other level of elite military we might (please stress "might") have fewer casualties in the military (please, I am not advocating military aggression anywhere) however, it is apparently not feasible in terms of time or money to do so nor, I also suspect, does every soldier/diver have the physical and mental resources that it takes to be trained to the highest possible level. (again to cut off naysayers, I mean that some people simply cannot train to lift three times their body weight over their heads or do 100 pushups on a single go or go 100 hours without sleep for example) My original certification was an eight week NAUI course. Would a 100 hour Scripp's like course be better than shorter classes? Of course. Is there a happy medium? Somewhere. What is it? I don't know. Please remember what we've all heard in scuba classes, the only way to absolutely guarantee that you will not get DCS is not to dive. I ask my students if they think it is necessary to understand Boyle's Law in order to follow the rule "never hold your breath." They all answer that they can of course follow the rule without knowing the science behind it but most agree that they prefer to have a basic understanding of the science. I believe most instructors are competent and do the best job of which they are capable most of the time. Many of us play at other sports that have risks involved and play without being trained to the highest possible level. I play basketball occasionally but I will never dunk the ball. Is scuba different? Of course. But you could also theoretically break your neck and die playing ping pong. There is a happy medium and it is somewhere in that range between the bare minimum being taught in some recreational classes and the diving required of a Navy Seal. I still take umbrage at (my perception) of Thalassamania's opinion that an instructor is ultimately responsible for anything a student might do but let me take personal accountability for perceiving it in a contumelious fashion.