Is 100 dives enough for an instructor?

[Popeye]

Rick Christ once bubbled...
I disagree, I started to dive in 71, became OWSI in 89 with over 3400 logged dives (no not a typo); I am a Capt. in the lower Keys. The new instructors are so poorly trained it frightens me. It is not the fault of the new Inst., but the responsibly is on the Cert. Agencies. This goes back to the question of 100 dives being enough to become an instructor. WE HAVE ROOKIES TEACHING ROOKIES in this industry, so the Cert Agencies can keep the cash flow coming.=-)

Most of us have a tendancy to look at the new crowd and remember how tough it was back in our day.

How do you quantify "so poorly trained"?

If all these incompetant rookies are teaching and diving, where are the injuries?

What other result would incompetence in a life threatening recreation promote?

You guys are making it sound like it's a miracle that they get back to the boat alive.

And not to put too fine a point on it, but as a Capt., this kinda sounds like Disneyland complaining about tourists.

We have, per capita, a declining death rate, and more divers diving than ever.

As a dive industry professional, what benchmark should we set, in view of that, for the instruction agencies to meet?

I dive the lower Keys among many other places, and more than half of my 150+ dives a year are with OW and AOW students, with various instructors.

I just don't seem to see what you see. What is it that makes you think that instructors are generally incompetent?

And do you let them on your boat?

 

[jbd]

this thread but it does come to mind that many of the flight instructors giving flying lessons only have a little over 300 hours of flight time total when they start teaching flying. There has to be a starting point.

 

[ElectricZombie]

JohnDiver once bubbled...
Does anyone know anyone who actually has failed a dive class after they have paid.. Very few if any.:bonk:

Actually, we failed about 8 people last semester. 2 or 3 OWI students (Many stopped coming - these are college students - some didn't try) and 5 or 6 "Master Diver" canidates. (They signed up for a Master Diver class with only 6 lifetime dives! The whole class failed BTW.) They apparently thought that we were just going to give them a card. That's not going to happen. They are out $300+ dollars and will not be able to re-take the class until the University offers it again the semester after next. Since the University does not sell gear and is not a business, we don't have to just give someone a card in hopes that they will buy gear from us.

People do fail dive classes, although probably not as often as they should.

 

[Scuba]

Incompetent also means:

"Inadequate for or unsuited to a particular purpose or application."

"Devoid of those qualities requisite for effective conduct or action"

My AOW "instructor" failed to review the quizzes we were required to turn in and review. Sent us with one of his assistants on a dive since he was busy juggling two classes. Sent us alone on the last dive because they were all dived out. Only once in passing did he offered a little advise on how to improve, to a student who was doing the bycicle kick at 45 degrees while sucking like a hoover and was obviously not at ease in the water, but in need of much advise. But he did spend considerably more time trying to get everyone to sign up for more classes.

To his credit he did demonstrate compass and wheel use, but whether students demonstrated the ability to use them accurately or not apparently was beyond his duties.

So is this instructor competent? Not!

Whether he simply lacked the knowledge and skills necessary to proficiently instruct a class or willingly chose to abrogate his duty to his students, his agency and his profession - is immaterial.

Any instructor who chooses to abrogate his responsibilities is derelict of duty and therefore, in my book, incompetent and unfit to instruct anyone. A new instructor who may need polish and experience can still do a good job by being careful and putting in the effort do his best.

This type of instructor can cause and allow unfit students to place themselves in danger by failing to properly instruct and warn them about potentially dangerous practices in need of correction. Specially when he chooses to issue a Certification implying a degree of competency without even emphasizing necessary improvements, and warning about the potential consequences.

The student mentioned above got uncomfortably low on air one dive, 700 psi., (keep in mind it is known he sucks the tank dry - fast) and stopped in about 30 ft while another student went chasing the "instructor - tour guide", as I stayed with him. By the time the "instructor - tour guide" came back he was at 500 psi and getting lower fast. This person should have been closely watched by him, not by other students.

Scuba instruction isn't elementary school. when I take a class I take my responsibilities as a student seriously and expect the instructor to do the same.

 

[o2scuba]

"Does anyone know anyone who actually has failed a dive class after they have paid.. Very few if any. "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



"People do fail dive classes, although probably not as often as they should. [/B][/QUOTE]"




I agree Electriczombie. I am amazed at some of the divers who show up not knowing hoe to set up their gear, do proper entries, kick cycles, bouyancy, proper weighting, just to name a few.

I sincerely believe that some of them never learned it. Thus there are obviosly SOME instructors out there not doing an "adequate" job. I disagree with the "most" statements on this thread.

On the other hand, many divers forget things due to a period of diving inactivity. Some also become dependant on their spouce, parent or Divematser.

Does this mean that they were never trained properly?

I passed calculus class when I was in school, now I can hardly spell the word

We have a drop-out rate of about 1 out of 18 or 20. Dopr-out because: they stop coming to class (usually those college kids but others too), just not comfortable in the water, and sometimes because we "fail" them

fail= diplomaticaly explaining that they have not met the performance requirements of the program. Sometimes additional training is recommended. Sometimes we suggest that this sport is not for them. Sometimes they can display the skills nessessary to complete a "skin DIver" or PADI SCUBA Diver rating.These examples are for open water class.



In the advanced, rescue and above, there is a much higher "falure rate". Usually it comes down to repetition of a particular dive that they did not sucessfuly complete the performance requirements.

I have had students who had to repeat the "nav" dive 6 or 7 times. With practice most divers get it eventually, but there are still drop-out in these levels as well.

Andrew

 

[Rick Christ]

Here I go!
Some examples that I have experienced

In my IDC in 89 an inst candidate was over weight, really could not dive very well. They wear a 50# weight belt with a men’s large ¼” wet suit. Their excuse was they could not get under. They did not have much diving experience. I spoke to the CD about this matter and was told that this person had come up the ladder with this CD from OW to IDC now and he could not do anything about it.

At the IE this same candidate in the open water lost the class member and could not get down with the 50# weight belt. So all of us pretend student were sitting on the bottom waiting for the inst. candidate. I spoke to the IE examiner about this situation and the response I got was he would talk to this person. I found out later this person was awarded the OWSI and told to get some more dive time.

That next season this OWSI was doing an AOW and in the deep dive lost the class at 40’ and returned to the surface without the class because their ears would not clear. The class got to 80’ and could not find the inst. and returned to the surface with no problems.

I call the cert agency and in formed them again about this problem, and was told they would check into this. The next weekend this inst. had a class on a wreck on the north shore of Lake Superior and a student died. This inst. would not go down to find the missing student, but sent a friend to look for them. The student was found on the bottom reg off of mouth, still free flowing. The student was brought to the surface and CPR was started. The student from the CPR threw up and this inst stop CPR.

I called the cert. agency and was in formed that because of the incident, nothing could be done. As it would look as this inst was not competent. This inst is still active today. I have a hand full of this kind of stuff that has happen

The drop out rate is high because the level of instruction and the dive operations are not offering exciting dives. The biggest problem is if a dive boat mixes divers & snokelers, the diver are getting cheated. The only place you can take both to is a shallow reef. The diver should be in 40’ to 100’ to see the good stuff.
:boom:

 

[montereydivemas]

what a horror story, That guy and his instructor should both be hung bu their hoses!!!

 

[Dryglove]

Rick Christ once bubbled...
Here I go!
Some examples that I have experienced

In my IDC in 89 an inst candidate was over weight, really could not dive very well. They wear a 50# weight belt with a men’s large ¼” wet suit. Their excuse was they could not get under. They did not have much diving experience. I spoke to the CD about this matter and was told that this person had come up the ladder with this CD from OW to IDC now and he could not do anything about it.

At the IE this same candidate in the open water lost the class member and could not get down with the 50# weight belt. So all of us pretend student were sitting on the bottom waiting for the inst. candidate. I spoke to the IE examiner about this situation and the response I got was he would talk to this person. I found out later this person was awarded the OWSI and told to get some more dive time.

That next season this OWSI was doing an AOW and in the deep dive lost the class at 40’ and returned to the surface without the class because their ears would not clear. The class got to 80’ and could not find the inst. and returned to the surface with no problems.

I call the cert agency and in formed them again about this problem, and was told they would check into this. The next weekend this inst. had a class on a wreck on the north shore of Lake Superior and a student died. This inst. would not go down to find the missing student, but sent a friend to look for them. The student was found on the bottom reg off of mouth, still free flowing. The student was brought to the surface and CPR was started. The student from the CPR threw up and this inst stop CPR.

I called the cert. agency and was in formed that because of the incident, nothing could be done. As it would look as this inst was not competent. This inst is still active today. I have a hand full of this kind of stuff that has happen

The drop out rate is high because the level of instruction and the dive operations are not offering exciting dives. The biggest problem is if a dive boat mixes divers & snokelers, the diver are getting cheated. The only place you can take both to is a shallow reef. The diver should be in 40’ to 100’ to see the good stuff.
:boom:

Wow!! That is some way scary stuff.

 

[AquaTec]

JohnDiver once bubbled...
Too many credit card instructors now..... It seems if you pay you pass regardless of your abilities.... Does anyone know anyone who actually has failed a dive class after they have paid.. Very few if any.:bonk:

I personaly have failed several students, and have no problem doing so.
i tell them that they need to repeat the course or a portion of the course. they can do so at a reduced fee if there is room or at full price if they are taking someones spot.

I can usualy tell within one or two pool sessions if they are gpoing to make it or not, but i let them go through the whole course and i work with them on their week spots. generaly they remove themselves from the class. the week spots are usualy physological with fear of the water, breathing through their mouth only, stuff like that...I have had a few [one in my last class] were i told them they where not mature enough. kids obviously. in the last class the student did all the skills well, aced the classroom stuff, but when he was task loaded he would go into a temper tantrum..i spoke to the dad who was also in the class, and said i would not take him in the ocean until he was a little more mature.......probably about ten years

as for the 100 dives, i think you should have 100 dives before you are a dive master, then you should apprentice under another instructor like a trade, and do a multi year program. this would produce a much higher level of diving instructor.....and like the trade qualifications, you would be available to chalange the final test

 

[jhelmuth]

I just can't see how anyone could be certified as an instructor with only 100 dives. That's just too few to be competent.