Is 100 dives enough for an instructor?

[Popeye]

Walter once bubbled...
DEMA has no idea how many divers there are.

How odd.

An international marketing organization that has no idea what it's market is.

Last year, they had numbers, but the website has changed.

I'll e-mail them tomorrow and see if they can help us.

 

[XtremeSea1]

This thread is interesting. I wouldn't say that there are a lot of incompetent instructors but I have witnessed many poorly trained ones. Fatalities are in fact rare. Odds are, your chances are greater by 100 fold of being involved in a fatal traffic accident on your way to the dive site, than being involved in a diving accident. This is true even of divers who's instructors weren't of the highest calibur. Why is the mortality rate so low? There is no clear cut answer here, but one thing I am certain of and that is that MOST of the fatalities in my area occur with very experienced/advanced divers. My experience has led me to believe that most entry level divers have a healthy fear/respect for the water. They are NOT comfortable pushing the limits or breaking the rules. They are still plain scared to screw up. This is not so with the experienced group.

A few months ago, a co-worker of mine lost his best friend to a diving accident. This person was a charter boat operator and commercial spear fisherman. It was his 3rd dive of the day. An air embolism killed him. Was this a case of "sh$t happens" or did this diver do something wrong? Think about it. This is only one story of many I've heard when I was managing a chain of LDS's, all involving experienced divers. Just look at some of the famous names in diving that were killed in recent years.

The fact is...diving is a very forgiving sport, especially to the beginner who's skills are fresh. People don't die because they can't clear their mask. They don't die because they can't R&R their weight belt. They don't die because they forgot how to do a shared air ascent. They don't die because their instructor forgot to show them a skill.

There are two common threads in all diving fatalities. Complacency and/or panic, and the first will inevitably lead to the second.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Popeye once bubbled...



Following -your- logic, the majority of doctors are incompetent because an infatismal number of patients die.

Actually, you might find that Diver's Alert Network keeps lotsa nifty statistics. What they show is, that the number of diver deaths decreases, per capita, steadily.

Over a period of decades.

Neither does DAN, as the foremost dive safety authority, even address instructor competence as a problem.

I'm surprised you're not a member.

I didn't state that the body count was "my" standard of instructor competence, I said it was the only one we had.

If you note that the -average- yearly death rate (last I checked, 2002 not in yet) is about 88 divers, take out the 40% that die of natural causes, compare that to DEMA's 8 million certified divers, and (just) PADI's 200,000 annual certs, you'll see the scope of the problem.

The number of divers increases, the number of diver deaths decreases.

My numbers are aproximate, but the general idea is clear, with any numbers you may wish to employ.

As for -your- anecdotal observation from the previous post that 80% of your instructors were incompetent, and that "I've had several incompetent instructors and have seen many more", I'm curious:

What do you feel would evidence the cause-and-effect of this dirge of incompetent instruction, and how would you rate your own diving skills, since you indicate you've recieved little competent instruction?

Just curious.

I find it odd that I have 16 cards from 4 agencies, and have never met an incopetent instructor.

Not only would I not pay one, I don't understand how all this incompetence goes unreported to regulatory officials.

Maybe it's a location thing.

I'm sorry but I think you should rea the DAN report or the summarry in "Dive Training" (I think it was ) again. I in fact include a short review of the report in my classes.

The report clearlu shown that buoyancy control problems and rapid ascent are reported in a large percentage of dives that result in injury or death. POOR DIVE SKILLS ladies and gentelmen! I have witnessed several ambulance runs and every incedent but one was a result of poor dive skills.

Lets use visability to asses the skill of our divers and instructors. I spend too much time in quarries that have 50+ feet of vis until some other diver show up and then it goes down to 5 inches. IMO, this is sure a sign of incompetence in dive training.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Popeye once bubbled...



People seem to villify the diving masses to accredit their own stature.

Some of us don't villify the diving masses we try to educate the. Some may villify them because they ruin our dive sites. Ours are an absolute mess when there are divers there.

Not long ago I witnessed a class that I thought was not only poor but dangerous. I got talking with the DM and turned the conversation towards trim and balance and how to get there with students. This pro had no idea what I was talking about and didn't see a problem with all the students being in the bottom popping to the surface and making a mess. A week before that I had the same conversation with the owner of a large shop that certifies more divers in a year than my shop will in ten. As we talked about balance and trim he proudly pointed to the fact that they use weight integrated BC's and put the weight in the pouches. When I mentioned getting students balanced and trimmed he said it would take way too much time and he could never compete that way. I view this as a blatant disregard for the student. Again I reference the lack of basic skills play in diver injury.

 

[TCDiver1]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

The report clearly shown that buoyancy control problems and rapid ascent are reported in a large percentage of dives that result in injury or death. POOR DIVE SKILLS ladies and gentelmen! I have witnessed several ambulance runs and every incedent but one was a result of poor dive skills.

True Mike, a large percentage of the injuries that do occur. Why is the number of injuries so small? I not defending lax training or skills but this board mantra of rampant poor skills would surely cause a higher reported injury rate. It's not logical to me.

I don't totally buy the reason of "most dives are supervised" excuse because if the instructors or assistants leading the dives were truely incompetent as many on this board believe, how are they going to stop multiple numbers of poorly skilled divers from hurting themselves. You know how hard it is to handle one truely panicy diver let alone multiple ones at the same time.

Buoyancy control problems causing the majority of accidents that do occur is no revelation to me. What's the first thing that usually happens if panic does occur? A bolt for the surface. No one, no matter how experienced or skilled is immune to panic under the right circumstances. I've stopped or slowed down my share of surface bolts, i'm sure you have too. If injuries occur in those circumstances would Dan catagorize them as caused by buoyancy control issues? Probably.

In my experience, i would not catagorize all of these times someone bolted for the surface as specifically caused by lack of buoyancy control. Panic, brought on by lack of comfort, which is usually caused by multiple problems, of which buoyancy control trouble can be one of them, IMO causes the bolt.

The fact remains accidents rates are relatively low. One accident is to many but we don't live in a perfectly safe environment anywhere in life.

 

[Walter]

"Panic, brought on by lack of comfort, which is usually caused by multiple problems, of which buoyancy control trouble can be one of them, IMO causes the bolt."

This is a direct result, in most cases, of poor training by an incompetent instructor.

 

[TCDiver1]

Walter once bubbled...

This is a direct result, in most cases, of poor training by an incompetent instructor.

Yes, i agree that can be a cause. So can diving beyond ones limits, not performing a good predive safety drill, diving only once or twice a year on vacation, thinking your joe diver forever after passing OW class ... etc ...

 

[Popeye]

Walter once bubbled...
"Panic, brought on by lack of comfort, which is usually caused by multiple problems, of which buoyancy control trouble can be one of them, IMO causes the bolt."

This is a direct result, in most cases, of poor training by an incompetent instructor.

Even when 35% of the fatalities that occur involve divers with 10 years diving experience?


That's an awful stretch, especially in view of the overall numbers to begin with.

 

[Popeye]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I'm sorry but I think you should rea the DAN report or the summarry in "Dive Training" (I think it was ) again. I in fact include a short review of the report in my classes.

The report clearlu shown that buoyancy control problems and rapid ascent are reported in a large percentage of dives that result in injury or death. POOR DIVE SKILLS ladies and gentelmen! I have witnessed several ambulance runs and every incedent but one was a result of poor dive skills.

I'd be interested in seeing your review, as I don't take Dive Training.

You have a very ambiguous use of "large percentage" in your statement.

How long do you feel an instructor should be held responsible for the actions of their graduate divers?

1 Year? 3? 5?

Serious question.

 

[Popeye]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...



Not long ago I witnessed a class that I thought was not only poor but dangerous. I got talking with the DM and turned the conversation towards trim and balance and how to get there with students. This pro had no idea what I was talking about and didn't see a problem with all the students being in the bottom popping to the surface and making a mess.

I'm curious to know what further action you took with the quarry owner, the shop owner, and the parent agency of this instructor in light of this situation you describe as "dangerous".

I would feel safe in assuming that a "dangerous" situation in the venue of scuba training could safely be called life threatening.

I know as a responsible diver, shop owner, and instructor, you wouldn't leave this situation unaddressed.

After all, they'll just be at your divesite again next week.