ElectricZombie
Contributor
Excellent post, I completely agree. Mastering fundamental skills provide a solid foundation on which to build.
Is 100 dives enough for an instructor?
- Thread starter wazza
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Excellent post, I completely agree. Mastering fundamental skills provide a solid foundation on which to build.
Popeye
Contributor
I read the last few posts, thanks.
I asked this question before, you declined to answer.
How long, in years, do you feel an instructor should be held responsible for the actions of their students?
1 year? 3? 5? Forever?
Honest question.
Popeye
Contributor
While agree that the numbers are insignificant, I asked you before what action you took against an instructor you described as "dangerous", and you declined to answer.
While you certainly are correct that agency enforcement is the key to instructor quality, that responsibility starts with you and I.
The agencies are virtually powerless without us.
Until we act as individuals, whatever minor or major problems there may be will continue.
When and (a big) if statistics -do- support your line of reasoning, the intervention will come from the government, and we will all be very unhappy.
Popeye
Contributor
I agree with the point, but, the individual responsibility always comes down to the diver.
Logs are easy to fake, an instructor will straighten up when being observed, the bottom line is, we have to police ourselves.
If the instructor does not even teach the student basic skills they will likely never learn it nor will they even know there are skills they dont have .in that case the instructor is responsible forever. But someone like mike who is clearly teaching and expecting far more of his students than is required by the agencies should not be responsible for anything a former student does.
joens
Popeye,
If those two questions were directed to me I missed them sorry but I'll answer now.
I don't believe the instructor is responsible for the actions of the student they are responsible for the students skill level ( and to some extent their attitude) on the day the student gets a card.
If you were asking what action I personally take against a dangerous instructor...I don't take action against them unless I know who and what and can report something if there is an actual standards violation. Often I don't have a name. I may see the instructor under water and not recognize them on land. However, I spend alot of time trying to educate divers and even share ideas and methods with other instructors and DM's. Often one teaches as they were tought and are quick to jump on something better. So I guess I'm saying we try to influence/educate divers and instructors but there isn't much in the way of punative action we can take.
If I got the question wrong please clerify and I'll try again.
If those two questions were directed to me I missed them sorry but I'll answer now.
I don't believe the instructor is responsible for the actions of the student they are responsible for the students skill level ( and to some extent their attitude) on the day the student gets a card.
If you were asking what action I personally take against a dangerous instructor...I don't take action against them unless I know who and what and can report something if there is an actual standards violation. Often I don't have a name. I may see the instructor under water and not recognize them on land. However, I spend alot of time trying to educate divers and even share ideas and methods with other instructors and DM's. Often one teaches as they were tought and are quick to jump on something better. So I guess I'm saying we try to influence/educate divers and instructors but there isn't much in the way of punative action we can take.
If I got the question wrong please clerify and I'll try again.
Wreck Ranger
Guest
As far as the posted question, on the average I don't think that you should not become an instustor with only 100 dives. There are people that could be very good instructors with that many dives, but like I said it's, not the norm. All people learn at different levels and a few would be ready but most would not. There are people who are instructors now that probably shouldn't be, but that's a discussion for a later post. Overall I would say no.
Groundhog246
Contributor
I have an aquaintance with almost 20 years diving experience, IF you go by the fact he got his OW C-card almost 20 years ago (he has done other courses since). Of course in the last 10 years he's only dove on trips South, usually for a week or two a year and not at all for the last 4 years. He's the kind of guy who'd hop a plane next month, show his card, claim 20 years since his certification and several hundred dives (and rightly claim hundreds of dives), but not mention the 4 year hiatus. A prime candidate to be a DAN statistic.
Due to this type of problem, divers showing up for the first time at my LDS to rent or purchase gear or join a dive trip, are usually asked to show their log book, as well as a C-card. I've known a couple to get upset and bad mouth the shop. If it's been a while since you dove, they'll probably insist you come back with a bathing suit and towel to demostrate your skills in their pool. If you can demonstrate acceptable knowledge and skills (eg. hook your gear up correctly) no problem. If you can't, they'll probably suggest a refresher course and decline to rent you gear.
They have failed students at OW dives I've attended. Rare, because most fail at the classroom/pool level, or made to repeat until they're ready for OW.
XtremeSea1
Guest
Well I'm glad someone besides me is awake. While I believe there are some poor instructors out there, there are FAR MORE POOR STUDENTS! I lost count of the self proclaimed rocket scientists I've been forced to issue a cert card to just because they met the minimum standards of the course. People that can't be taught anything because "they've been reading up on it" or "my buddy's a SEAL and he says..." blah blah blah. They do the absolute minimum to get through the classes. I guess when these morons cloud up the bottom it is the instructors fault too? Anyone who believes this has never taught a class.
The instructor/student relationship works both ways...
An instructor is obligated to teach
A student is obligated to participate, pay attention, learn as much as he/she can and continually hone their skills. Fact is, this country is full of morons.... wouldn't we all agree? Some of these morons take scuba classes.
Popeye
Contributor
The questions are fine. Forgive me for not knowing how to break up the quotes yet.
Above you say:"I don't believe the instructor is responsible for the actions of the student they are responsible for the students skill level ( and to some extent their attitude) on the day the student gets a card."
Which I agree with, but I understood you to previously say that accidents, no matter when they happen, are the fault of poor instruction. That doesn't reconcile with the above answer.
As far as punitive action, you are referred to here by others as a quality instructor(and my compliments). Who better to assume this burden than a qualified instructor. If you feel that you can't interdict this at Gilboa, how can some PADI official do it from California?
It's up to us.
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