Is 100 dives enough for an instructor?

[Popeye]

Groundhog246 once bubbled...

I have an aquaintance with almost 20 years diving experience, IF you go by the fact he got his OW C-card almost 20 years ago (he has done other courses since). Of course in the last 10 years he's only dove on trips South, usually for a week or two a year and not at all for the last 4 years. He's the kind of guy who'd hop a plane next month, show his card, claim 20 years since his certification and several hundred dives (and rightly claim hundreds of dives), but not mention the 4 year hiatus. A prime candidate to be a DAN statistic.
Due to this type of problem, divers showing up for the first time at my LDS to rent or purchase gear or join a dive trip, are usually asked to show their log book, as well as a C-card. I've known a couple to get upset and bad mouth the shop. If it's been a while since you dove, they'll probably insist you come back with a bathing suit and towel to demostrate your skills in their pool. If you can demonstrate acceptable knowledge and skills (eg. hook your gear up correctly) no problem. If you can't, they'll probably suggest a refresher course and decline to rent you gear.
They have failed students at OW dives I've attended. Rare, because most fail at the classroom/pool level, or made to repeat until they're ready for OW.

I never fail to be amused at the hubris of the "experienced" diver. I agree with your point completely. I participate very actively in a Usenet dive group, and in 5 years, I've met and dived with 55 different members, some repetatively. And while the majority were solid, there were some spectacular exceptions, with divers claiming great experience.

But.

I certainly didn't see it as the fault of their instructor.

 

[Popeye]

XtremeSea1 once bubbled...


Well I'm glad someone besides me is awake. While I believe there are some poor instructors out there, there are FAR MORE POOR STUDENTS! I lost count of the self proclaimed rocket scientists I've been forced to issue a cert card to just because they met the minimum standards of the course. People that can't be taught anything because "they've been reading up on it" or "my buddy's a SEAL and he says..." blah blah blah. They do the absolute minimum to get through the classes. I guess when these morons cloud up the bottom it is the instructors fault too? Anyone who believes this has never taught a class.

The instructor/student relationship works both ways...
An instructor is obligated to teach

A student is obligated to participate, pay attention, learn as much as he/she can and continually hone their skills. Fact is, this country is full of morons.... wouldn't we all agree? Some of these morons take scuba classes.

I find this revelation -stunning-. I can't believe anyone would willingly train and certify -masses- of people who are incompetent.

I regularly assist with NAUI classes, and spent several years assisting IANTD classes, and don't see this trend. What agency do you represent, and what exactly, do you find shortcoming in their syllabus?

Are you comfortable with the degree of involvement you have in endangering people's lives?

If you really feel the way you do, you should cease instruction immediately until you can find a responsible way or a responsible agency with which to instruct scubadiving.

Are -you- the instructor that everyone here is complaining about?

 

[Groundhog246]

Popeye once bubbled...
As far as punitive action, you are referred to here by others as a quality instructor(and my compliments). Who better to assume this burden than a qualified instructor. If you feel that you can't interdict this at Gilboa, how can some PADI official do it from California?
It's up to us.

If the certifying agencies can't do anything to follow up an a complaint (assuming anyone ever complains), then what are they "certifying"? I know my LDS left the PADI fold as he felt they were not doing their job re: enforcement and requirements. Maybe they need to adopt the "mystery shopper" idea and send out "mystery students"? Someone who would attend the class, OW, screw up a skill and assess the response. Many companies/franchises do it and it works.
Having been at Gilboa on a weekend and seen the student bottom-crawlers, I'm not rushing back. In a better world, divers would stay away in droves, citing the churned up mess of some instructors students, causing the owner to make them clean up their act (or ban them). Reality is, the students appeared to make up the majority of paying customers, so the instructors will stay and the rest of us dive elsewhere. If we go again, it will be mid-week.

 

[Groundhog246]

XtremeSea1 once bubbled...
The instructor/student relationship works both ways...
An instructor is obligated to teach

A student is obligated to participate, pay attention, learn as much as he/she can and continually hone their skills. Fact is, this country is full of morons.... wouldn't we all agree? Some of these morons take scuba classes.

I've never taught a scuba class, but I think you missed one. I'd think an instructor is obligated to fail those who don't measure up. If the student did not participate, pay attention and exhibit the necessary skills, they should fail. Just because they paid, they aren't supposed to be buying a c-card, they should have to earn it. And at least basic buoyancy skills should be a requirement. It is where I trained. You don't do your open water till you can manage a hover in the pool.
It's the same in schools around here. Pass em all. Doesn't matter if they can read or not.

 

[Popeye]

Groundhog246 once bubbled...

Having been at Gilboa on a weekend and seen the student bottom-crawlers, I'm not rushing back. In a better world, divers would stay away in droves, citing the churned up mess of some instructors students, causing the owner to make them clean up their act (or ban them). Reality is, the students appeared to make up the majority of paying customers, so the instructors will stay and the rest of us dive elsewhere. If we go again, it will be mid-week.

I spend a lotta time in quarries. I'm with you all the way. Gilboa wasn't bad when I was there (Sat), but it was in the Spring. I think relating to the owners is a good idea, but a first dive is always gonna be a first dive. The local quarries (Nashville Knoxville Huntsville) are all the same way.

 

[diverkim]

For some people definitely yes, but for others, well, they require more experience. It is the same for OW divers. For some 4 dives is enough but for others, well, really more dives are required.

 

[XtremeSea1]

Popeye once bubbled...
I find this revelation -stunning-. I can't believe anyone would willingly train and certify -masses- of people who are incompetent.

I regularly assist with NAUI classes, and spent several years assisting IANTD classes, and don't see this trend. What agency do you represent, and what exactly, do you find shortcoming in their syllabus?

Are you comfortable with the degree of involvement you have in endangering people's lives?

If you really feel the way you do, you should cease instruction immediately until you can find a responsible way or a responsible agency with which to instruct scubadiving.

Are -you- the instructor that everyone here is complaining about?

You obviously didn't read my post and inserted what you wanted between the lines...nice try.

The fact is...These students I've mentioned met the requirements. The requirements are a minimum standard to be met. Are you telling me that students should get the equivelant of a 100% score or they don't pass? Thats not how it works. A student that does everything your way in the pool or during the cert dives can easily turn around and do it the way they please once they finish the course. They can wait a year or 2, or 3, if they like before diving again, and forget everything they've been taught, and there's nothing you can do about it. Scuba instruction is a business, and with that comes customers (students), both good and bad. An instructor doesn't have the luxury of failing students because they didn't ace the course. I never have, and never will pass a student that doesn't meet all of the requirements of my agency but that doesn't mean that one of my students will never silt up a dive site or drag their guages across a coral head. Many things are completely out of the instructors control once the student graduates. To blame the instructors for all of the poor divers out there shows a complete lack of knowlege of what it takes to teach a class. I would think that someone with your extensive "assisting" background would know this but obviously DM's (if that's what you are) can be poorly trained as well. As for me, I'm the instructor that my agency feels is competant and professional enough to train their instructors for them. When you reach this milestone, feel free to throw all the stones you like.

Do you know what they call a student that barely makes it through med school? A doctor...think about it. (no offense to the doctors in the crowd, just trying to make a point)

 

[Walter]

XtremeSea1,

"I lost count of the self proclaimed rocket scientists I've been forced to issue a cert card to just because they met the minimum standards of the course."

Set higher standards. If you are not happy with the quality of your students, raise the bar. As a NAUI Instructor, you can add requirements to your course.

 

[XtremeSea1]

Walter once bubbled...
Set higher standards. If you are not happy with the quality of your students, raise the bar. As a NAUI Instructor, you can add requirements to your course.

You're right, you can raise them but you have to draw a line somewhere. I never said I was not happy with the quality of my students. To the contrary, 90% or better were outstanding, many going on to fill leadership roles including instructor. I'm simply trying to make the point that saying "marginal divers are the product of a marginal instructor" is nothing more than an unfair assumption.

 

[Popeye]

XtremeSea1 once bubbled...


You're right, you can raise them but you have to draw a line somewhere. I never said I was not happy with the quality of my students. To the contrary, 90% or better were outstanding, many going on to fill leadership roles including instructor. I'm simply trying to make the point that saying "marginal divers are the product of a marginal instructor" is nothing more than an unfair assumption.

Actually, this is what you said:
"Well I'm glad someone besides me is awake. While I believe there are some poor instructors out there, there are FAR MORE POOR STUDENTS! I lost count of the self proclaimed rocket scientists I've been forced to issue a cert card to just because they met the minimum standards of the course. People that can't be taught anything because "they've been reading up on it" or "my buddy's a SEAL and he says..." blah blah blah. They do the absolute minimum to get through the classes. I guess when these morons cloud up the bottom it is the instructors fault too? Anyone who believes this has never taught a class."

"I lost count of the self proclaimed rocket scientists I've been forced to issue a cert card to just because they met the minimum standards of the course."

And now you're back pedalling fast, saying 90% of your students are outstanding.