Is 100 dives enough for an instructor?

[MikeFerrara]

Popeye once bubbled...


I spend a lotta time in quarries. I'm with you all the way. Gilboa wasn't bad when I was there (Sat), but it was in the Spring. I think relating to the owners is a good idea, but a first dive is always gonna be a first dive. The local quarries (Nashville Knoxville Huntsville) are all the same way.

This is my point exectly and is the first thing that MUST change. Everyone believes it but it isn't true. If a student can't yet stay off the bottom they are not ready for open water. The sad part is many of these divers never learn to stay off the bottom. My own OW student complain about the mess they see divers make as they hover and watch them wallow in the bottom.

Reference the Jan/Feb issue of "sport Diver"magazine page 44. There is a two page picture of a blatant standars violation. All these student have dangling alternates and gauges and are being taken into the water by an instructor that I believe is incompetant to the point of being dangerous. There is no excuse for it. If these idiots can't afford the stuff to secure this equipment I'll sent them some bungie , snorkel keepers, tubing or whatever for free.

BTW, I didn't mean to say that accidents (no matter when they happen were the fault of bad training I said they were due to poor skills which certainly indicates poor training.

 

[MikeFerrara]

diverkim once bubbled...
For some people definitely yes, but for others, well, they require more experience. It is the same for OW divers. For some 4 dives is enough but for others, well, really more dives are required.

Not subjective good buoyancy control is a requirement of each dive. If they can't stay out of the bottom on dive one they don't do dive two they do dive one again. It is that simple these are all skills that should be practiced in the pool

 

[Popeye]

XtremeSea1 once bubbled...


You obviously didn't read my post and inserted what you wanted between the lines...nice try.

The fact is...These students I've mentioned met the requirements. The requirements are a minimum standard to be met. Are you telling me that students should get the equivelant of a 100% score or they don't pass? Thats not how it works. A student that does everything your way in the pool or during the cert dives can easily turn around and do it the way they please once they finish the course. They can wait a year or 2, or 3, if they like before diving again, and forget everything they've been taught, and there's nothing you can do about it. Scuba instruction is a business, and with that comes customers (students), both good and bad. An instructor doesn't have the luxury of failing students because they didn't ace the course. I never have, and never will pass a student that doesn't meet all of the requirements of my agency but that doesn't mean that one of my students will never silt up a dive site or drag their guages across a coral head. Many things are completely out of the instructors control once the student graduates. To blame the instructors for all of the poor divers out there shows a complete lack of knowlege of what it takes to teach a class. I would think that someone with your extensive "assisting" background would know this but obviously DM's (if that's what you are) can be poorly trained as well. As for me, I'm the instructor that my agency feels is competant and professional enough to train their instructors for them. When you reach this milestone, feel free to throw all the stones you like.

I don't have to throw any stones when you're busy hitting yourself in the head with them.

This is what you wrote:
"Well I'm glad someone besides me is awake. While I believe there are some poor instructors out there, there are FAR MORE POOR STUDENTS! I lost count of the self proclaimed rocket scientists I've been forced to issue a cert card to just because they met the minimum standards of the course. People that can't be taught anything because "they've been reading up on it" or "my buddy's a SEAL and he says..." blah blah blah. They do the absolute minimum to get through the classes. I guess when these morons cloud up the bottom it is the instructors fault too? Anyone who believes this has never taught a class.

The instructor/student relationship works both ways...
An instructor is obligated to teach

A student is obligated to participate, pay attention, learn as much as he/she can and continually hone their skills. Fact is, this country is full of morons.... wouldn't we all agree? Some of these morons take scuba classes."

You're openly derisive of the standards your students have to comply with, and of their overall abilities as divers, and most incredulously, as an instructor, you blame the students.

Since I know what kind of standards my LDS instructors use to turn out proficient OW grads, I guess it must be you.

You set the bar with your post, don't get upset when people measure you with it.

 

[XtremeSea1]

Popeye,
This has gotten old so I'll be the bigger man here and call it quits. This is a forum. I simply don't have the time to explain the intricasies and meaning behind every word I type and your hell bent on assigning hidden meaning and agenda behind my words so I'll make my position as simple and clear as humanly possible...

It's agreed that there are many marginal divers out there. It's also agreed that there are some marginal instructors. I don't believe for a New York minute, that the all of the marginal divers are the result of marginal instructors. The End.

 

[Popeye]

XtremeSea1 once bubbled...
Popeye,
This has gotten old so I'll be the bigger man here and call it quits. This is a forum. I simply don't have the time to explain the intricasies and meaning behind every word I type and your hell bent on assigning hidden meaning and agenda behind my words so I'll make my position as simple and clear as humanly possible...

It's agreed that there are many marginal divers out there. It's also agreed that there are some marginal instructors. I don't believe for a New York minute, that the all of the marginal divers are the result of marginal instructors. The End.

I heartily agree with your NYMinute point, it's the entire jist of my argument. I was taking exeption to you blaming students, which you clearly did.

Since you don't have time to explain what you clearly write, I'll just try harder to keep up next time.

Until then, let me attempt to share some -profound- wisdom from another forum, which I feel you are without.

The top quote is in reference to a new GUE program. The bottom half would serve you well to jot down, especially the "quite simple" part.


"> You have suggested that this program is simply a marketing scheme, a wishy> washy class and a dumbed down class. That all irrespective of the fact that> it does everything your agency does, and much more.."

"Firstly, my agencys do not teach any of my classes. I do. Secondly, I certify the diver, not the agency. Thirdly, my agencys all grant certifications based on my request and my request alone. It's all quite simple." [Randy Milak]

 

[diverkim]

I don't remember ever stating anything about buoyancy control on this posting. Of course, what you say is axiomatic. Everybody agrees on the necessity of confined water training. But how the students perform in a pool (if they should be so lucky to have a pool for confined water) does not always correspond to how they perform in OW.
My only point was that different people acquire the necessary skills at different rates; therefore, to arbitrarily decide on a certain number of dives is a subjective criterion.

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Not subjective good buoyancy control is a requirement of each dive. If they can't stay out of the bottom on dive one they don't do dive two they do dive one again. It is that simple these are all skills that should be practiced in the pool

 

[perpet1]

Epinephelus once bubbled...
The number of dives a diver has is perhaps the poorest measure of instructional competency there is. I have seen divers who throw themselves body and soul into diving from their first class, who are natural teachers and ready to be competent as instructors after 100 dives. I have seen divers with (I'm thinking of a specific individual here) with over 3000 dives who couldn't teach a fish to swim.
The ability to teach effectively is far too dependent on other factors than the mere number of times someone's jumped in the water to say "yeah" or "nay" based solely on that.
Bottom line - as an absolute minimum cutoff I think 100 dives is just about right, for the cream of the crop.
E. itajara

I totally agree! I am an Instructor with many more then 100 dives and yes I had many more when I got certified BUT that is not the only factor. In my every day job I manage a training department for a high tech company. I have seen this many times in that you can learn the material to be taught and the skills But it is hard to learn how to teach. A person can learn the required material in 100 dives provided the dives were varied and NOT just to pump the numbers. I think the Instructor trainers should interview and approve prospective instructor candidates and ensure they are capable prior to accepting them into a program. It is more important that the candidate be able to teach and present concepts in such a way that everyone can understand.

 

[Dive4Life]

It is obvious that this coversation can go down many roads, so I am going to do my best to keep this post in the mainstream. It is my personal opinion that 100 dives is enough to qualify someone as a recreational dive instructor candidate. I don't believe that extraneous experience in the water is necessary to teach the skills that a BOW-Rescue student would need to know. If you are going for a dive leadership certification you should have sense enough to tell the experienced instructors from the less experienced instructors. Even a less experienced instructor with a minimum of 100 dives should be able to demonstrate the necessary skills for a BOW diver. If the instructor fails to get his students to properly perform with consistency the skills necessary to be a diver, than this to me means that he just isn't necessarily the best teacher in the world. I don't care how much experience you have if you can't work with people than you aren't going to be the best instructor. This does not immediately correlate to experience. Experience does help and I personally will not go with a less experienced instructor for a couple of reasons. This does not necessarily mean that a less experienced instructor is not just as good of a teacher as an experienced instructor. Teaching is the ability to pass on knowledge and ideas to others in a comprehendable and understandable manner sot that they can use those ideas and knowledge for practical reasons. An instructor has to be able to teach. Teaching experience can come from military training or years of being an educator, which once again doesn't relate directly to dive experience, but which would help greatly in teaching someone how to dive.
These are just my opinions and hope that I have helped to explain some things to others who might take a different stand on this matter than I.

 

[JHAM]

I have 170 recreational dives for experience. I wouldn't consider myself qualified to teach anyone, nor would I be comfortable taking on the responsibility.

One thing my experience has taught me.... I wouldn't sign up for a class with someone whom has so little experience. Wouldn't trust 'em. Therefore wouldn't be inclinded to listen to them.

I know a "certified dive master" with some where around 30 dives experience. He is one of the worst divers I've ever met. And, obviously his lack of ability and experience does not help his situation. In fact, it is hard to have the proper respect for him that a dive master deserves.

If you want my two cents, there is no substitution for real experience. I'll continue to train with people I know have the experience to be knowledgable about the subject.

 

[DivemasterSteve]

JHAM once bubbled...
I know a "certified dive master" with some where around 30 dives experience.

what agency certified him with only 30 dives, or who did he pay off? i know PADI requires you to have 80 before you can complete DM.

steve