Is it illegal?

[Northeastwrecks]

I agree with MgicTwnger. It sounds like a nice opportunity to introduce them to the concept of "limpet mine". It also sounds like a good opportunity to add another reason to my "Top 100 Reasons Why I'll Never Go Back To France" list.

I'm curious how these idiots would check my depth, since I usually don't use a computer. Would they also like to check my deco plan? How about the color of my wetsuit and the functioning of my P-valve.

I won't use an operation that requires me to dive with their DM or in a group. There is simply no need. All I require out of the boat is a ride to the site and a decent briefing. Don't touch me or my equipment unless I ask.

At least half of the divers in the group with whom I travel are at least DM's with several years experience. The other half are our spouses/significant others. Some of us are technical divers with decent experience.

Except for the ride to the site and a brief, I don't see what forcing a local DM on us will add to the experience.

I've had some wonderful guided tours. I've also had some great dives with shop staff after the regular dives were done and they were on their free time.

However, the fact remains that I decide with whom I dive. That goes for the boat staff as well as the other divers on the boat.

Requiring a so-called professional to escort me, or assigning police to check my profiles, is simply another example of Big Brother watching out for things he can't understand.

 

[Amanda]

Well, it MAY be too many cops and regulations, but

- They are very polite and discreet whan checking the C-cards on the boats.

- At least, there is NO false DMs. I don't want to imagine the side effects of "Oh, my C-card ??? Weeeeeellllll, you know, it's been stolen , it's on the way but right now I ... err.... My logbook ? Oh, I just lost my first one, and there were 1500 dives in it... But here's the new one, with 130 dives..."

Not a single diver is going to go back diving with that dive center !!

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Amanda:

Why do you need police to check this? If you're concerned about the DM's qualifications, then ask to see the credentials yourself.

Besides, if the boat is used for nothing more than a taxi, then a DM's fake qualifications won't affect the dive because you're not dependent upon the DM's experience.

 

[Amanda]

Northeastwrecks once bubbled...
Amanda:

[1]Why do you need police to check this? If you're concerned about the DM's qualifications, then ask to see the credentials yourself.

[2]Besides, if the boat is used for nothing more than a taxi, then a DM's fake qualifications won't affect the dive because you're not dependent upon the DM's experience.

[1] The problem is that, in summer and in the touristic areas, tourists are just here to have a dive and enjoy, and very rarely ask to see their guides' C-cards - whiwh is very sad. They don't really realize that their security is the most importantn thing (as we have already discussed in this thread ...

[2]Like I said before, for experienced divers like you are, this is no big deal. This isvery important when it comes to beginners ... At least I THINK it is, IMO.

 

[Diver0001]

alcina once bubbled...
Have been reading another thread where a diver has said that it is illegal to be a guide as she is not a DM or higher...

I am wondering about the rules/regulations in various places. In Australia it isn't actually illegal to be a guide even if you do not have a DM or higher certification. The issue is more one of insurance not legality.

Look forward to hearing what is going on everywhere else

BTW - I am not debating/questioning if it is good or bad one way or another....just curious...I have met quite a few non-professional level divers who have been better guides for me than the professionals on board!

It's not illegal. In principle every diver should be able to plan his/her own dive and dive his/her own plan so you can always accompany them as a buddy.

I don't know how other organisations would react, however under the PADI system:

- If divers are not under either "direct" or "indirect" supervision of a DM or higher you can't fly the PADI flag. You can't make use of the PADI liability forms (or any other forms), you can't mention PADI or advertise with the PADI logo etc. All you can do is buddy up with them. You can also buddy up with them for money but not under the PADI flag. If you *do* wave the PADI flag and then send and unqualified (do not confuse with unskilled) guide then PADI could sanction the dive centre. The guide would probably get away with it.

- Less qualified divers *can* accompany divers in the water if the group is under the "indirect" supervision of a DM or higher. A DM doesn't need to be in the water. A Rescue diver can, for example, accompany divers in the water as a experienced "buddy" while the "pro" supervises from the deck of a boat. In this case you need to make it clear who the DM is, and where he is going to be. To limit your liability exposure you should also inform the divers of the qualifications of their "guide" and it should be made clear what should be expected from the person in the water. And while this isn't against the rules, I don't think it's really what PADI had in mind.

R..

 

[DivePartner1]

Northeastwrecks once bubbled...
I agree with MgicTwnger. It sounds like a nice opportunity to introduce them to the concept of "limpet mine".

Come on now. France is a sovereign nation that's free to regulate it's own affairs. Just as Americans loath the thought of a UN regulation of the US (mythical though it is), it is hypocritical to impose our values on others, much less talk about killing their police. If Europe ever adopts the kind of 'security' screening that America is blindly embracing, that would be enough to get you thrown in a European jail, without a trial, in perpetuity.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

DivePartner1 once bubbled...


Come on now. France is a sovereign nation that's free to regulate it's own affairs. Just as Americans loath the thought of a UN regulation of the US (mythical though it is), it is hypocritical to impose our values on others, much less talk about killing their police. If Europe ever adopts the kind of 'security' screening that America is blindly embracing, that would be enough to get you thrown in a European jail, without a trial, in perpetuity.

You're right. France is a sovereign nation (thanks to the Allies) whose police (and military) is well suited for the difficult and dangerous task of checking dive logs. At least it will keep them out of the way of the real troops.

France can regulate whatever it wants within its borders. Like I said, I'll simply add it to the list of the top 100 reasons why I won't ever return. Been there, done that, hated the place.

Bear in mind that I feel the same way about someone trying to board and inspect my dive log here. If someone wants to see how I dive, they can follow me down and try to keep up.

Once again, the surrender to Big Brother makes me ill.

 

[RickM]

I appreciate that everyone has a right to their own views, but how can someone scorn safety checks. Is it purely because those doing it are in authority?
There are cowboys out there who are dangerous to themselves and others.
Diving is a fantastic sport which can be enjoyed by many. Lets not allow some dodgy outfit to ruin it for everyone else.
If you are a qualified DM then you do not have anything to worry about if a regulating body wants to check your credentials!!!!
It's nothing to do with Big Brother

 

[The Chairman]

we can expect to have onerous restrictions that will make no sense. Like all divers being required to wear a snorkle, or all BCs will be required to be Coast Guard approved and have them thar CO2 cartridges installed "for safety" reasons. Then they will outlaw our lead weights and the list will go on ad nauseum. Who knows, they might try to require us to buy some silly medallion to dive the wrecks in the Keys!!! Less government interference in my life is always best.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

RickM once bubbled...
I appreciate that everyone has a right to their own views, but how can someone scorn safety checks. Is it purely because those doing it are in authority?
There are cowboys out there who are dangerous to themselves and others.
Diving is a fantastic sport which can be enjoyed by many. Lets not allow some dodgy outfit to ruin it for everyone else.
If you are a qualified DM then you do not have anything to worry about if a regulating body wants to check your credentials!!!!
It's nothing to do with Big Brother

First issue. They may have assumed authority, but that doesn't mean much to me as I have yet to see a government entity do anything particularly well when compared to the private sector. Moreover, the last thing we need is more intrusion by government hacks who would be stuck working the night shift in a 7-11 if they hadn't managed to secure cushy jobs paid by my taxes.

This comes down to personal responsibility. If divers won't check their charter operator's qualifications, then they get what they deserve. I'd rather teach a student to check qualifications than to rely upon hacks to do it for them. In fact, we do teach them to check. We also teach them that just because the DM does it doesn't mean that they should. This applies to the so-called pros who take newbies to 140 feet on air in the Carribean or Mexico.

Besides, Amanda's description of the situation in France applies to more than dive leaders. It sounds like these bozos will check the qualifications of anyone they find on the water. This is fundamentally wrong as it is another example of the erosion of personal freedom and responsibility and our increasing reliance upon government to do our thinking for us.

Finally, it is a remarkably poor use of resources. Given finite resources, which would you prefer your police to do? (1) Catch murderers; or (2) Hold the hand of every newbie stupid enough to think that they can dive the Andrea Doria on an AL80?

It comes down to this. You are personally responsible for your actions. Don't look to others to protect you unless you are willing to surrender your freedom.

I'm not advocating unsafe practices or operators. However, I'd rather see the operators shut down by the market and the practices eliminated by proper training or through experience. I don't want some underqualified, overpaid hack to do it for me.