Is octopus useless?

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TSandM:
Length of hose does not impact reg performance.
..snip..

Not strictly true, basic hydrodynamics says that there will be a pressure differential along a tube in which a liquid/gas is flowing.
Is it significant?
If you observe regulator hoses you will see fat ones and thin ones. The fat ones will give less pressure drop in a steady flow condition, like purging or filling an SMB or lift bag. A long thin one will cause a flow reduction which may or may not be noticable.

Now OTOH there is a contradiction in that in practice unless you have a very good 1st stage you may actually feel a performance increase breathing with a fat long hose. The reason is that the hose itself acts as a reservoir for the IP pressure. So when you suck on your reg, the IP drop in the long hose may actually decrease keeping the 2nd stage easier to breathe. During your exhale the IP in the hose will return to nominal.
 
jvdk01:
I thought that there was a study done a long time ago by the University of Rhode Island that came to the conclusion that if a one of a pair of buddies had an OOA emergency and they tried to buddy breathe off of one second stage, often times you ended up with two dead buddies. I thought that this is what led the various training agencies to adopt the safe second system.
It was, as someone else said, the cave divers who first started using the octopus regulator. I started diving in 1959, and of course we did not have octopus regulators at that time (the double hoser regulator and a J-valve was our gear). I still dive those on occasion. I started diving an octopus after becoming a NAUI Instructor (we did not dive them in our ITC in 1973). By the way, I don't think it was Sheck Exley that developed the octopus, even though he may have been credited with it. That was standard cave diving gear in the early 1970s.

The University of Rhoad Island was a national clearinghouse for scuba fatalities, and issued a number of studies. I don't remember the one cited above, although this happened, I'm sure. I'll look at my references and see what I can find. But this did not initiate the use of the octopus regulator.

Initially, the octopus and redundant systems was a specialty diving piece of equipment. It was meant for divers who dove deep (greater than 60 fsw), or who for one reason or another could not surface immediately in an emergency (overhead environment--ice diving, cave diving, shipwreck diving, decompression diving).

I think the octopus regulator became a regular piece of sports diving equipment from a combination of industry pressure and having cave divers promote it. I was given a LP port adaptor by the Warm Mineral Springs Underwater Archeological Research group after volunteering with them, with the understanding that I would from then on always dive with an octopus. I did not, however, as I was then a USAF Pararescueman, and our parascuba jump configuration did not include using an octopus. Industry pushed it in the same of safety, as did the instructional organizations.

Today, I dive mostly solo, and so there are times I dive a safe second, and times I don't. Today, I used my UDS-1 scuba (a U.S. Divers 1970s triple tank system) which I equipped with a long hose and a safe second stage. Other times, especially when I river dive in current, I do not, as it is another piece of gear that I don't need for my shallow diving (max depth less than 30 feet). When I dive with a buddy, I always dive with a safe second. I have two double hose regulators set up with an octopus (a Sportsways Hydro Twin and an AMF Voit Trieste II).

One thing to remember is that buddy breathing is no longer taught, and so not many people have that skill. Also, the level of instruction has dropped dramatically in the last 30 years, so the people diving today are not necessarily even comfortable in the water, much less competant in an emergency (there are now "advanced" classes for that, including rescue diver, etc.). So I would recommend diving a safe second of some sort whenever buddy diving, unless you have someone you know has the experience to handle themselves underwater.
HealthwaysScubaRegulator--topview.jpg

Double hose regulator with a safe second regulator mounted on the manifold.
USS.jpg

US Navy School for Underwater Swimmers, Key West, Florida in 1967--normal configuration (no safe second).
WarmMineralSpringsdiver1.jpg

Cave diving setup, Circa 1975, Warm Mineral Springs Underwater Archeological Project; note the use of an octopus on the Cyclone regulator (we had some second stage failures of this regulator).
HoodCanal.jpg

A photo of your's truely, diving in the then-normal configuration with a single hose regulator (Healthways Scuba Star) that was a single hose, without an SPG, 1963.
parascuba.jpg

We could afford no extra hoses, etc. when parascuba jumping, as these were potential entanglement points when the parachute deployed. This practice parascuba jump photo was taken in 1968, just off the coast of Okinawa (now Ryuku Islands, Japan).
twin42s.jpg

I started using an octopus after the 1973 Warm Mineral Springs project, and this photo was taken approximately in 1975. Note that the octopus is hanging off my left side; in that era, we really had no place to put the octopus. It was simply left to drag around, and filled up with sand and all sorts of other gunk. Sometimes, it was almost unusable after a few dives. Buddy breathing allowed us to use a really good second stage (or with a double hose, a mouthpiece that shot air out at us whenever it was above the regulator). But buddy breathing is no longe taught, and so is in a bygone era.

Now, we have BCs with pockets and ways of bungeeing the safe second stage off, and they are a very good alternative breathing source.

SeaRat
 
TSandM:
Length of hose does not impact reg performance.

My husband routes his 5' hose under the arm, around the back of his neck and into his mouth. He added a swivel on his 2nd stage because he felt the position of the reg was uncomfortable otherwise. I have two other friends using the same setup who do not have swivels.
The routing may be great, but the addition of the swivel at the second stage will compromise the flow a bit. That is because the air needs to make a 90 degree turn, and that always produces turbulance, and reduces the flow. But if you are not diving deep, it should make no difference.

SeaRat
 
PerroneFord:
I had two second stage failure issues last week. In caves. I was very happy I didn't have to buddy breathe.

PF,

I'd like to hear more about those failures, if not in this thread maybe it its own.

Jeff
 
I got my original cert back in 1970... at that time, as I recall, the octopus was considered exotic 'high end' stuff... along with pressure gauges and other stuff that today is standard equipment.

Just recently, after a 25 year layoff (for some reason I don't seem to remember) I've rediscovered diving and the wonderful world of improvements that have occured in the sport during that time.

Is an octopus *necessary*... well, if you can react right, the situation is right and your dive buddy (or you) who may be in need of whatever available air can deal with the situation without panic... no. Learning how to share a single regulator USED to be a basic skill that was taught during certification...

HOWEVER, having once been in a situation where I had to rely on my buddy... (slightly narced [him... I was guy with no air] at the time... which doesn't help the overall situation as you might imagine...) the idea of having a simple and uncomplicated method of resolving less than optimal air distribution problems is, in my opinion, a *really good thing*.

Inherently I find it much like insurance... costly but darned indispensable when absolutely needed... and the thing about diving is... you can never tell when *absolutely needed* is going to arise. The best plans you make can be undone in a heartbeat by Mr. Murphy...

Personally... I'm absolutely thrilled by the advances in the sport I've seen...

J.R.
 
I find some more pros than cons in this discussion, thanks to everybody.
But one thing coming into my mind -
in a situation when your buddy panics octo is not the solution.
imaging him/her grabbing your primary/octo (doesn't matter), grabbing it really strong and fully inflating the BC. at 100 feet or so...
 
selytch:
I find some more pros than cons in this discussion, thanks to everybody.
But one thing coming into my mind -
in a situation when your buddy panics octo is not the solution.
imaging him/her grabbing your primary/octo (doesn't matter), grabbing it really strong and fully inflating the BC. at 100 feet or so...

There will always be scenarios that will lead to an unpreventable incident given a particular set of cirmunstances. In the scenerio you outline above, it is still preferable to have each diver breathing off their own regulator for the ride or struggle to the surface. Consider the more likely, and likely negative consequences with only one reg. available.
 
selytch:
I find some more pros than cons in this discussion, thanks to everybody.
But one thing coming into my mind -
in a situation when your buddy panics octo is not the solution.
imaging him/her grabbing your primary/octo (doesn't matter), grabbing it really strong and fully inflating the BC. at 100 feet or so...
Not being a wise guy or anything.
But, that problem is easily handled with either your knife (tool)
or his dump valve (activated by you).
If you opt for using the knife, keep it close or in hand at the surface (weapon)
until your buddy realizes that the loss of their BCD was a life saving neccessity.
 
Selytch wrote: "But one thing coming into my mind - in a situation when your buddy panics octo is not the solution."

Absolutely right... the octo is NOT the solution to panic... the octo IS *an* option to reaching the solution to get your buddy air... which may well be a step in the process of resolving the panic issue. Its a safer option for you in many instances because it allows you to keep your own air while your buddy is getting himself under control so that further discussions can ensue about how you both might extracate yourself from whatever situatation without either of you suffering unnecesary collateral damage... ie; making a bad situation worse.

The thing about it is that NONE of the equipment you take down with you is guaranted to keep you safe. They're just tools in a toolbox. Its all that grey stuff between yer' ears that is going to keep you safe... or help to keep ME safe. When working properly that 'grey stuff' will tell you what safety gear to use... how to use it... and when not to.

You will make matters better or worse by the CHOICES you make... not necessary the tools you have. Training, practice and time will help to train your brain to make better choices rather than worse choices (hopefully).

The ideal equation is that the *thinking* part of things never lets you get into a situation where emergency proceedures need to be called into play... but, if all *goes wrong*... having a spare tire in the trunk... a reserve parachute... or a spare octo... can help to keep a bad situation from progressing to worse... and might even facilitate it getting better IF properly employed... and that's where we get back to that *grey stuff* betwixt yer' ears... the better THAT works... the safer you are... and the best way to keep it tuned up is to continue with training and practice... accept no substitutes.

:coffee:

... as long as the bubbles continue to go UP... all is not lost...
J.R.
 
I was going to say that the octo is useless, at least it has been for me. Most of the diving I've done has been scientific diving, usually in & around kelps (lot of the time hovering in the canopy) so I took it off to keep it from ketting tangled up. My buddy was usually too far away to be of any use to me in an OOA situation (and vice versa) and the surface was just a few meters away. Then I just never put the octo back on. Several of the posts I've seen have convinced me that maybe it's time ot put it back, especially since my kelp diving days are pretty much over.
 
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