ISO Certification for Dive Classes

[MikeFerrara]

I like the concept. However I don't think ISO is the answer because like I said the ISO requirements deal more with the requirements of the documentation than they do with requirements of elements or goals of the process. The process much match the documentation but isn't in any way measured for its effectiveness.

Something else to think about is that the RSTC has set minimum standards for scuba instruction which are an actual (?) standard. I can't remember the standards organization. The point is it would be a alternative standard.

Aside from the ISO specific part I think there is merit to the idea. I'm willing to toss it around some more.

 

[WJL]

What we need is to find some sort of accreditation agency for scuba instruction. States do this sort of thing for K-12 schools, and there is some sort of accreditation agency for colleges and universities, but I don't know anything about it or how it works. Maybe that's the type of certification agency we should be thinking of if ISO won't work.

What about ASTM? I know that their standard-setting committees are staffed by representatives from industry and higher education. We could start our own ASTM standards committee for scuba diving instruction.

 

[Butch103]

who pays for these inspectors?..Are PADI,NAUI,YMCA,SSI,GUE/DIR etc, all going to agree and pitch in...?? and whos' standards are to be used?.....

In principle I agree, the logistics stand to be a nightmare....

 

[bwerb]

on ISO certification goes something like this...

"With ISO 9000 you can still have terrible processes and products. You can certify a manufacturer that makes life jackets from concrete, as long as those jackets are made according to the documented procedures and the company provides the next of kin with instructions on how to complain about defects. That's absurd"

~Richard Buetow, director of corporate quality for business systems, Motorola.

I think that sums it up nicely.

 

[Walter]

What is ISO? What do they know about diving?

Ignoring those two questions for a moment, address the issue of an independent evaluation of instructors. Evaluation of shops is useless, because many shops change instructors and therefore their quality of instruction fairly often. When are the instructors evaluated? How often? Are they aware of the evaluation or will it be a secret evaluation?

Just because an instructor can pass an evaluation, doesn't mean they will always teach as if they are being evaluated.

If implemented, it is unlikely that students will even be aware that such an evaluation exists and therefore few will look for it. There are already big differences from one class to another that are well known in the industry, but students are unaware and rarely try to find the better classes before signing up for the $99 special.

The problem is not a lack of evaluation. Every instructor passes an evaluation. What is lacking are worthwhile standards. Some agencies have standards that need to be beefed up. They won't do so because it'll cut into their bottom line.

I look at it like this, if an agency wishes to have meaningful standards, they should have the freedom to do so. If another agency wishes to have pitifully low standards, they should also have that freedom. If the majority of divers choose to take a quick class that does not adequately prepare them to really be divers, they should have the freedom to make that choice as well.

I definately have my opinion on what should be in a dive class, if your opinion differs from mine, why should I be allowed to force you to comply with my opinion? I shouldn't. The issue of freedom is much more important than the issue of what is in a class.

 

[jbd]

agency you are referring to Mike is ANSI. I had a something from them many years ago that listed the standards for scuba diving lessons. I've fallen asleep several times since those days so I may be But I had checked into this kind of info.

 

[MikeFerrara]

jbd once bubbled...
agency you are referring to Mike is ANSI. I had a something from them many years ago that listed the standards for scuba diving lessons. I've fallen asleep several times since those days so I may be But I had checked into this kind of info.

I think you're right. If I remember it's the RSTC and it's members that wrote the ANSI standard.

 

[jbd]

had that standards listing. Maybe a web search would produce another one

Given that a set of standards exists would there be need for creating another standards agency as is suggested in this thread?

Maybe all that needs to be done is change or modify the standards from what ANSI has listed to something more appropriate.

It would be interesting to post the standards that ANSI has and then have a discussion on what should be changed. If the scubaboard members could come to agreement on what would be appropriate standards how we get those standards published by ANSI?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Walter once bubbled...
What is ISO? What do they know about diving?

Ignoring those two questions for a moment, address the issue of an independent evaluation of instructors. Evaluation of shops is useless, because many shops change instructors and therefore their quality of instruction fairly often. When are the instructors evaluated? How often? Are they aware of the evaluation or will it be a secret evaluation?

Valid question but if I follow WJL shops wouldn't be able to use instructors off the street without first educating them to these standards (what ever they would be).

Just because an instructor can pass an evaluation, doesn't mean they will always teach as if they are being evaluated.

[/QUOTE

I doubt there is any way to get rid of all the dirt bags. Maybe we don't try. I think shops or instructors who would sign up to the kind of standard we're talking about would have a hard time faking it.

If implemented, it is unlikely that students will even be aware that such an evaluation exists and therefore few will look for it. There are already big differences from one class to another that are well known in the industry, but students are unaware and rarely try to find the better classes before signing up for the $99 special.

The individual shops would advertise it for starters. Like stamping a product as UL aproved or something.

The problem is not a lack of evaluation. Every instructor passes an evaluation. What is lacking are worthwhile standards. Some agencies have standards that need to be beefed up. They won't do so because it'll cut into their bottom line.

I think WJL is suggesting we don't wait for the agencies or ask their permission for that matter.

I look at it like this, if an agency wishes to have meaningful standards, they should have the freedom to do so. If another agency wishes to have pitifully low standards, they should also have that freedom. If the majority of divers choose to take a quick class that does not adequately prepare them to really be divers, they should have the freedom to make that choice as well.

I definately have my opinion on what should be in a dive class, if your opinion differs from mine, why should I be allowed to force you to comply with my opinion? I shouldn't. The issue of freedom is much more important than the issue of what is in a class.

This organization wouldn't be forcing anyone. They would simply evaluate the instructors and shops who asked to be evaluated. They would state their standards to the public and list the shops and instructors who meet their standards. Shops, instructors and divers who wish to ignore it would be free to do so.

 

[MikeFerrara]

jbd once bubbled...
had that standards listing. Maybe a web search would produce another one

Given that a set of standards exists would there be need for creating another standards agency as is suggested in this thread?

Maybe all that needs to be done is change or modify the standards from what ANSI has listed to something more appropriate.

It would be interesting to post the standards that ANSI has and then have a discussion on what should be changed. If the scubaboard members could come to agreement on what would be appropriate standards how we get those standards published by ANSI?

All of the standards of all the recreational agencies meet the minimums of the ANSI/RSTC standards. I would love to rewrite them. Do you think they'll let me?

Look at the pictures in the dive magazines. They don't get it. The only way to write in what we want without spending 30 years politicing in PADI and other agencies is to just write it.