It can be so much easier . . .

[boulderjohn]

I went diving with a group of divers that included the OP, TSandM, in the Philippines this fall. I almost started a very similar thread based on that experience. Allow me to explain.

Before joining TSandM's group in Dumaguete, I dived in reasonably nearby Puerto Galera for a while. It is a beautiful area for diving, and it attracted a number of photographers with high end equipment. I was very disturbed by what I saw. All the divers I saw had a lot of experience, but most had questionable skills. On one dive I was with a DM and one other diver with a huge camera rig. The DM pointed out something, and the photographer went in for the shot. He had his metal reef stick in hand, and he jammed it into the reef to hold his position while he, being very negatively buoyant, continued to flutter kick, wiping out everything behind him on the reef. The DM saw that, grabbed his feet, and held them up off the reef. After that dive, I talked with the DM. I said it was my observation that a lot of these divers were swimming around kicking up the bottom while negatively buoyant and then relying on their sticks to hold them in place while they took their shots. He got a disgusted look on his face and said, "About 90% of them."

Then I went to Dumaguete for a totally different experience. Almost all of the divers in this group had a completely different skill set. They were floating effortlessly in the water while neutrally buoyant, and when they approached a photographic subject with their big camera rigs, they could stop in mid water, hold their positions as they took their photographs, and then move away without clearing out all there was to see with their fins. That does not describe all of them, though. Some them, highly experienced divers, were still slamming the bottom with flutter kicks, stirring up silt, etc.

So, yes, it can be better, and it can be better in very short order if you have the right instructor, someone who focuses on that sort of thing. It can happen by the time you are done with your OW training. It can be corrected very quickly if you did not. You just have to find the right person to show you what to do.

 

[LowDrag]

Being a new diver with less than 50 dives I can completely agree with TSandM. I started off just like everyone else these days by being over weighted, in poor gear and less than good instruction. When diving on our own my wife and I would flutter kick and stir up the bottom behind us. Luckily for other divers and us, all of the places we were diving were not able to be "damaged" by our poor techniques. Mostly sand and gravel bottoms with seaweed or just plain muck.

Jump forward to last October...we signed up with NWGratefulDiver for a skills workshop that covered trim, buoyancy and propulsion techniques. I can honestly say that if we had taken OW with NWGratefulDiver or Peter and TSandM we would have been much better divers much sooner. We could have learned the proper techniques for trimming out and getting our weighting right to begin with so we could dive efficiently and not destroy anything.

A year or so ago I was asked to take a visiting instructor and his cousin up north to a local site for a days worth of diving. The instructor would lead the dive for obvious reasons. The cousin and I both had exactly 12 dives at that time. The instructor took point and I took up the rear with the cuz in the middle. What I saw next was the most amazingly riduclous thing I have seen in my diving history so far. All of us submerged where we did a second check to make sure everyone was okay and good to go. The leader started off following a rope path that had been pointed out to us during a site briefing. The cousin was standing on the bottom, he leaped up in the water column and started to breast stroke, and would kick his legs up and down like a flutter kick but with his fin tips (split fins) pointing directly at the bottom. He would "swim" about 20' then drop back to the bottom look around then do it all over again. I wish I still had the video it was amazing to watch. I am not trying to kick the guy, I actually wish he would have continued to dive with us so he could see divers with good technique and want to improve.

So, I agree 150% with TSandM. These skills can be learned in OW. I know my wife and I could learned these skills. NWGratefulDiver had me dialed in within four or five dives. My wife is going back to complete her workshop this month. We had to postpone her dives due to medical reasons so she will be diving with NWGratefulDiver again very soon.

 

[kr2y5]

Try to explain that expression to a generation that gets praise and a trophy for showing up and performing badly, not to mention the generation that does that to children. I'd say they are probably looking for the book that gets them to level 25 diver immediately, the same way they do for video games.

On the other hand, one could also view this as an opportunity, rather than as annoyance... if folks enjoy climbing levels in video games, they have a kind of passion and energy that can be harnessed. Right now, many folks don't bother to practice skills because they get no "points". Formal courses are expensive, few and far between, and do not provide much opportunity for evaluation outside a short time window in the class. What could be the various ways to grant people meaningful "points" that would motivate them to continue to self-improve?

 

[Dhboner]

On the other hand, one could also view this as an opportunity, rather than as annoyance... if folks enjoy climbing levels in video games, they have a kind of passion and energy that can be harnessed. Right now, many folks don't bother to practice skills because they get no "points". Formal courses are expensive, few and far between, and do not provide much opportunity for evaluation outside a short time window in the class. What could be the various ways to grant people meaningful "points" that would motivate them to continue to self-improve?

If you take up a sport that has the potential to be life threatening if not performed with care and you need to pursue "points" as a motivation for self-improvement, I for one would prefer you hit the links and work on your handicap. In my neck of the woods the strongest motivator is peer pressure...if your skills are rusty there is always someone around to help you out but if you don't want that help you won't have very many people willing to dive with you. We dive in a high silt environment so the "locals" get pretty pissed off if you haven't taken the time and effort to work on your fin technique and buoyancy. And as I said if you do need work there are people around to help.

 

[boulderjohn]

O Right now, many folks don't bother to practice skills because they get no "points". Formal courses are expensive, few and far between, and do not provide much opportunity for evaluation outside a short time window in the class. What could be the various ways to grant people meaningful "points" that would motivate them to continue to self-improve?

The problem with personal "practice" is that if you are doing things wrong, you are simply ingraining bad habits. That's what I did when I first learned to ski in my early 20s. I was too poor to afford real lessons. I learned by imitating others and by listening to the advice of veteran skiers who mentored me. It turned out that pretty much none of my models or mentors had any real idea what they were doing. By the time I took lessons, I had so many bad habits it was close to impossible for me to eliminate them. I eventually got good enough to compete relatively well in some citizen racing, and I took racing lessons for that. I could never get to where I really wanted to be, though, for when I got into the gates I invariably kept making mistakes that came from those old bad habits ingrained during years of ill-informed practice.

If you really want to improve, you have to find the right instructor to give you the right training. There are specific classes you can take from various agencies that will do wonders for you in very little time. You have to pick the right classes from the right instructors, though. It may not be a formal, certificated class. I believe an instructor mentioned earlier, Bob Bailey (NW Grateful Diver) still teaches a class that is no more than spending time with him and having him evaluate your skills and provide help, kind of like a ski or golf instructor would.

As for "points," that is the theory behind the continuing education model of classes. In the 1960s, the few dive agencies that were around were concerned about the high level of diver dropout and wanted to do something to keep divers learning. They thought they might be motivated by getting credit toward some goal for classes taken. That is when and why the AOW certification was created. That was when the idea of specialty certifications was invented. That's when the idea of giving a higher rank (Master ScubaDiver) for people who accumulated enough specialties was developed, patterned under the Boy Scout ranks that depend upon the number of merit badges acquired.

 

[kr2y5]

My point (pun not intended) was that students are what they are, and unless you believe you can change the entire generation of people, or that would rather turn them away from scuba diving, the only constructive way forward is to accept them as they are, just as you have to accept that the water is wet, and that the snow is cold. The question is then, given that students show a certain type of attitude, whether it could be put to a good use. Could you harness their energy in a positive way?

If you take up a sport that has the potential to be life threatening if not performed with care and you need to pursue "points" as a motivation for self-improvement, I for one would prefer you hit the links and work on your handicap. In my neck of the woods the strongest motivator is peer pressure...if your skills are rusty there is always someone around to help you out but if you don't want that help you won't have very many people willing to dive with you. We dive in a high silt environment so the "locals" get pretty pissed off if you haven't taken the time and effort to work on your fin technique and buoyancy. And as I said if you do need work there are people around to help.

So, there you have one example of a "point", peer approval, acceptance in a group that upholds certain standards. I bet not many people benefit from this sort of mentoring. What could be done to make sure that more people are members of such groups, and that they can receive this sort of constructive peer pressure?

The problem with personal "practice" is that if you are doing things wrong, you are simply ingraining bad habits. That's what I did when I first learned to ski in my early 20s. I was too poor to afford real lessons. I learned by imitating others and by listening to the advice of veteran skiers who mentored me. It turned out that pretty much none of my models or mentors had any real idea what they were doing. By the time I took lessons, I had so many bad habits it was close to impossible for me to eliminate them. I eventually got good enough to compete relatively well in some citizen racing, and I took racing lessons for that. I could never get to where I really wanted to be, though, for when I got into the gates I invariably kept making mistakes that came from those old bad habits ingrained during years of ill-informed practice.

So, to turn it around again, under what conditions would self-practice not ingrain bad habits? Can there be any such conditions? As an example, a student with a camera can post their skills on YouTube, and get feedback from instructors. Could that work? If not, what is the obstacle to making it work? What would need to be done differently to eliminate this obstacle?

If you really want to improve, you have to find the right instructor to give you the right training. There are specific classes you can take from various agencies that will do wonders for you in very little time. You have to pick the right classes from the right instructors, though. It may not be a formal, certificated class. I believe an instructor mentioned earlier, Bob Bailey (NW Grateful Diver) still teaches a class that is no more than spending time with him and having him evaluate your skills and provide help, kind of like a ski or golf instructor would.

But this isn't about me. I was responding to a general point that the new generation of divers has a certain type of attitude, and suggesting a constructive approach to deal with it. If students like to score points, they can do so in classes, but they don't end up taking those classes, the right question to ask is, what's wrong with those classes that prevents the students from taking them? Maybe the classes are too heavy-weight, and require too much commitment at once? You could assert, instead, that something is wrong with the students' attitude (not with the classes), but if you accept the idea that the students are what they are, the only constructive way forward is to conclude that it's the classes that need to change (as they say, since the mountain won't come to Muhammad, then unfortunately, Muhammad will have to drag his butt to the mountain).

As for "points," that is the theory behind the continuing education model of classes. In the 1960s, the few dive agencies that were around were concerned about the high level of diver dropout and wanted to do something to keep divers learning. They thought they might be motivated by getting credit toward some goal for classes taken. That is when and why the AOW certification was created. That was when the idea of specialty certifications was invented. That's when the idea of giving a higher rank (Master ScubaDiver) for people who accumulated enough specialties was developed, patterned under the Boy Scout ranks that depend upon the number of merit badges acquired.

Right, and those all seem to be very positive developments, but the world moved on... if the people continue to change, the education system also needs to continue to evolve to adapt to their way of thinking...

 

[Steve_C]

Just to play devil's advocate. I agree one should have good buoyancy skills, able to navigate without damaging anything, etc. But I do not think that requires spending a lot of time working on perfection. That's ok for those who want it, but that is not my style. I dive the same set of equipment I bought when I got certified, a jacket BCD and aeris regs. (except I have a pony for deeper dives and have more wet suits.). I primarily use a flutter kick since it is most comfortable to me. I can do it moving along the bottom without stirring things up. I do not worry about being perfectly weighted. Especially with a pony I am always a few pounds over. I just like to dive. Nobody will ask me to do a training video. Having said that I am always horizontal unless I want to be in a different position, I can hang motionless, and my dives are NDL and not air limited. I do practice some things that are safety critical like releasing an SMB from depth, but again I go for safety and reliability and not being picture perfect. Usually folks who buddy with me would be happy to do it again.

I am not saying to not get training. I have run out of courses to take that interest me (deep, boat, drift, nav, buoy, rescue, search, dry suit, dpv, solo, and probably some others). Just saying that I do not have a drive to strive for some sort of ideal.

 

[boulderjohn]

So, to turn it around again, under what conditions would self-practice not ingrain bad habits? Can there be any such conditions? As an example, a student with a camera can post their skills on YouTube, and get feedback from instructors. Could that work? If not, what is the obstacle to making it work? What would need to be done differently to eliminate this obstacle?

How is it done in other activities? The participant gets GOOD advice, and then goes out and follows it in a conscientious practice session. I am by no means a good golfer, but I would have been hopeless without that approach.

But this isn't about me.

I was evidently unclear. I was using the generic "you" and not referring to you specifically.

I was responding to a general point that the new generation of divers has a certain type of attitude, and suggesting a constructive approach to deal with it. If students like to score points, they can do so in classes, but they don't end up taking those classes, the right question to ask is, what's wrong with those classes that prevents the students from taking them?

In my opinion, they don't do it because they don't know they need to.

If you think you are doing a good job, you don't go out and try to improve. The overwhelming majority of scuba divers do not see models of what truly outstanding diving looks like. As a golfer or a skier, I can look to a PGA championship or an Olympic event on TV to see that I have a long way to go. When does the average reef diver see anything different and truly realize what that difference is? Even many instructors have never seen anything else and do not know any better. I recently told the story of a diver who told me that when she took her OW instruction, her instructor slapped 20 pounds on her 105 pound frame so she could kneel solidly at the bottom of the pool and then told her not to worry about the fact that she could not do any of the buoyancy skills because they are really hard and only true experts can do them. I am sure that instructor had never seen anything else but that in his life.

 

[LowDrag]

If you really want to improve, you have to find the right instructor to give you the right training. There are specific classes you can take from various agencies that will do wonders for you in very little time. You have to pick the right classes from the right instructors, though. It may not be a formal, certificated class. I believe an instructor mentioned earlier, Bob Bailey (NW Grateful Diver) still teaches a class that is no more than spending time with him and having him evaluate your skills and provide help, kind of like a ski or golf instructor would.

That is exactly what Bob did with me. I just plain feel better in the water after having been through his workshop. The feeling of being neutral is awesome and Bob got me there. He pointed out where I was missing a few things in techniques like my frog kick and I have that worked out now. Am I the perfect diver? No, but I have a much better foundation to build on now. I hope to be a good example to new divers like myself, showing them that these skills are attainable.

As for points. This isn't a video game it is a skill based activity and people need to look at it like it is an accomplishment that is attainable and worthy of feeling good about.

 

[kr2y5]

How is it done in other activities? The participant gets GOOD advice, and then goes out and follows it in a conscientious practice session. I am by no means a good golfer, but I would have been hopeless without that approach.

Just to clarify, I am not against promoting formal training in classes, in case you might be under such assumption. I think it is necessary, but if what Bob DBF says is true, then as necessary as it is, it might also be insufficient.

I was evidently unclear. I was using the generic "you" and not referring to you specifically.

I guess what I was trying to say is that our local community is hardly a representative sample. When I lived on Long Island, there was no Bob Bailey, no GUE, no regular weekly dives with multiple friendly groups, no dozens of shore dive sites (some protected), no local discussion boards, etc., and my understanding is that this is generally the way things look elsewhere (but I may be wrong). So, access to quality mentoring for most people is probably very much limited.

As for me, I am doing a Bob Bailey dive tomorrow, and expect nothing less from Bob than raw, uncooked, organic truth, and some serious spanking wherever it is deserved

In my opinion, they don't do it because they don't know they need to. If you think you are doing a good job, you don't go out and try to improve. The overwhelming majority of scuba divers do not see models of what truly outstanding diving looks like. As a golfer or a skier, I can look to a PGA championship or an Olympic event on TV to see that I have a long way to go. When does the average reef diver see anything different and truly realize what that difference is? Even many instructors have never seen anything else and do not know any better. I recently told the story of a diver who told me that when she took her OW instruction, her instructor slapped 20 pounds on her 105 pound frame so she could kneel solidly at the bottom of the pool and then told her not to worry about the fact that she could not do any of the buoyancy skills because they are really hard and only true experts can do them. I am sure that instructor had never seen anything else but that in his life.

I think we might be saying the same thing... I spoke of "points" somewhat metaphorically. I agree one needs frequent, and specific (!) quality feedback, to understand what the mistakes are that need to be corrected. Whether it takes the form of formal "points" for specific skills, or whatever, is another matter. I was simply posting an open question, what other forms of frequent, specific, fine-grained feedback could be made available to divers who don't have a Bob Bailey in their neighborhood (and even to those who do).