Keep your hoses to yourself!

[Keith.M]

Yup - for sure everyone should spend 25-50 dives mastering crappy buoyancy, not using a compass, and otherwise imprinting all manner of bad/unorthodox dive skills. That way, when you take AOW the instructor really has to earn his/her money.


:d

Or, you could take a good AOW class right out of a good OW class and learn all of those things from the outset.

Saying you should "just go dive" instead of taking AOW after OW is like saying you should "just go do math" instead of taking the second semester of algebra right after the first semester. If you're not ready to move on you need remediation, but - like in math class - the expectation is/should be that OW should prepare you for AOW.

Actually, that is a rather poor analogy. I think it is more like learning to drive. In order for a kid to get their license in CA, they have to have 6 hours of behind the wheel instruction. Once they have their first 2 hour lesson, their permit is now valid and the objective is to drive drive drive. They don't practice poor driving habits, they practice good driving habits. After 30 - 50 more hours behind the wheel, they get their second lesson. Then drive some more. In the end, after 6 months, they take their last lesson and go and take the driving test.

I don't think I said anything about practicing crappy buoyancy or not using a compass. In fact, I believe I have contributed before on some threads regarding my execution of dive plans right after OW.

Now I do understand that everyones experience after OW is different, yours must have been much different than mine.

 

[halocline]

With PADI, AOW is designed to immediately follow OW classes, for better or worse. I have seen a number of students do very well with that sequence; together the courses are more of a comprehensive certifying course. I think the 'advanced' moniker in this case more refers to the idea of advancing the certifying class, not to 'advanced' diving in any way. But I agree that some students will benefit more from taking the class after a period of time diving. I think it really depends on the individual.

Personally, I think that the certifying class should be both courses, but that's extra money and time, which means fewer new divers, and that pretty much goes against everything PADI is trying to do.

 

[TSandM]

I think there are definitely two sides to the issue of when to take AOW. It is certainly true that, except for very talented people, four dives is not enough to cement good buoyancy and trim -- but an OW class is CERTAINLY able to a) show students what it looks like, and b) give them some ideas of how to work toward it. Buoyancy is something you can't really teach, although you can give suggestions. It's really something that has to be learned, by experimenting with breathing patterns and the use of the equipment, and by refining weighting. An OW student can certainly ask his buddy how his trim looks, and he should be able to do a weight check. If he can't, the OW class was faulty.

However, the curriculum of the standard AOW class is, with the exception of the deep dive, not terribly difficult, and should be within the grasp of anyone who is more or less stable in the water. So I am not sure that a lot is accomplished by delaying the class very much. Now, if you're taking NW Grateful Diver's AOW class, that's a different story!

 

[RJP]

Actually, that is a rather poor analogy. I think it is more like learning to drive.

Well, the thing about analogies is that they don't have to be 100% exactly the same. However, your example is "a rather poor analogy" in that a learner's permit does not mean that you are a "certified driver" but rather that you are "learning to be a driver" so it's pretty off-point. To make it on-point, think of an OW c-card as a driver's license. You are now certified as being competent to dive/drive. If you are not competent to do so, you should not be given a license/c-card.

As far executing dive plans right after OW... that's what you're supposed to be able to do. Not sure whether the threads you mention highlight that you were or were not able to execute dive plans right after OW. If you couldn't, then there was a problem with your class, not your abilities.

---------- Post added March 3rd, 2013 at 05:53 PM ----------

With PADI, AOW is designed to immediately follow OW classes, for better or worse. I have seen a number of students do very well with that sequence; together the courses are more of a comprehensive certifying course. I think the 'advanced' moniker in this case more refers to the idea of advancing the certifying class, not to 'advanced' diving in any way. But I agree that some students will benefit more from taking the class after a period of time diving. I think it really depends on the individual.

Personally, I think that the certifying class should be both courses, but that's extra money and time, which means fewer new divers, and that pretty much goes against everything PADI is trying to do.

I think the way I did it worked out very well. Though as you point out, it was not cheap. Even if you remove travel costs. But I didn't get into diving to save money...

Dives 1-4: OW (in NJ/FL, with two rigorous instructors)
Nitrox course (no dives)
Dives 5-9: AOW (in Hawaii, with a rigorous instructor a month after getting certified)
Dives 10-14: Two additional dive days in Hawaii
Dives 15-16: Peak Performance Buoyancy (with a rigorous instructor)
Dives 17-18: Dry Suit (with same rigorous instructor)
Dives 19-20: Boat Diver (specific course about NJ wreck/boat diving, with a rigorous instructor)
Dives 21-22: two additional NJ wreck dives
Dives 23-50: Trip on the Cayman Aggressor

I can only speak to my own experience, but I was a far better diver after 50 dives than if I had "just gone diving" rather than taking AOW right after OW. Here I am on logged dive #25 or so...

Was this because I was a stupendous diver by nature? Maybe, but I doubt it. Sure, I had the aptitude... but mostly I followed a pretty good curriculum of course laid-out and taught by some very good instructors.

 

[Keith.M]

To make it on-point, think of an OW c-card as a driver's license. You are now certified as being competent to dive/drive. If you are not competent to do so, you should not be given a license/c-card.

OK, drivers license = C-card. So should the newly licensed driver immdiately start learning how to drive a semi or should they get some experience first?

Either way, I am sure both styles can work just fine. Quite honestly I would never have thought anyone would have an issue with advice to go diving. Why you would make an assumption that all they could be doing is practicing bad habits? At the same point, I do understand that some people do have the aptitude and some people don't. Some people can get consumed by this and read and study about it constantly, dive as often as they can and always try and improve on every dive. Others may not care and just want to breath air underwater.

As far as you being a better diver at 50 dives because of the way you took your training. Possibly true, but you will will never know since that is the only way you did it.

Nice over/under pic. Very cool.

 

[RJP]

OK, drivers license = C-card. So should the newly licensed driver immdiately start learning how to drive a semi or should they get some experience first?

So now your analogy is that OW=driving a car and AOW=driving a semi?

 

[ianr33]

What does a dangling octo/SPG has to do with knocking into the coral reef? That sounds like a depth control problem than danglies problem. If your danglies are, say, on a 36" hose (or whatever length), and you stay 5-ft above the reef, what are these things going to hit?

That may work for warm water vacation divers, but if you try it in Texas lakes your backup will be dredging in the silt before you see the bottom .

 

[Progen]

Okay, because you work with abandoned/abused animals, which is a strong interest of mine, I'm happy to give you a 2nd stage that I think will help substantially with your drymouth and allow you to ditch the biofilter. I'll send you a scubapro 109, metal case. It might be a bit beat up on the outside but well rebuilt (if I do say so myself) and in perfect working order. I'll see what I have, and I have friends that have several of 'em, between us we'll find something. It would be good to know the IP of your first stage, and you'll have to pay shipping from the U.S. Fair enough?

Jesus, I don't know what to say. After all the trouble I caused with this thread and I get a free 2nd stage?

 

[halocline]

Jesus, I don't know what to say. After all the trouble I caused with this thread and I get a free 2nd stage?

Well, if you want to pay in some interceptor which is currently unavailable in the U.S. for my aussies, I'd be perfectly happy with that....but basically consider it karma for helping out our animal friends in need. Send me a PM after March 15 (I won't have time to do much before then) and we'll work out the details.

 

[Colliam7]

Personally, I think that the certifying class should be both courses,

i would agree with you in principle.

but that's extra money and time, which means fewer new divers,

Yep, that is exactly what it means. How many people are going to sign up for a 100 hour course, when a 40 hour (or less) course leads to OW certification? The answer to that is pretty clear. And, notwithstanding our lamentations, the market speaks for itself.

and that pretty much goes against everything PADI is trying to do.

Maybe, but get real. PADI only recognizes what the market is. So, maybe they are actually the smarter business organization. Rather than cursing the rain, they fill buckets.

So, what do we do? Adopt a guild mentality? Only the worthy, who have served the proper apprenticeship at the foot of the guild master can achieve certification? Right, that will probably fly in the 21st century (NOT). Stop whining about what PADI does or does not do. Do what you believe is right and proper, and accept the consequences, good and bad.

A longstanding peeve of mine has been employees who whine that 'someone else makes more money' than they do. My response always is, 'What someone else makes is none of your concern! That has nothing to do with YOUR salary. Your salary is a matter between YOU and the company.' So, what I want to know is, 'What you make is your concern. Do you want more? Why are YOU worth more? What do you do that makes you worth more?' If someone can't show 'why', and make a compelling business case, they can continue to work for their present salary, or leave. If they can, they will get a raise. What anyone else makes is not an issue.