LDS/Dive Clubs?

[Dawn]

Thanks for all of the replys. There isn't a "click" at the shop we attend classes at. I really enjoy hanging out with the divers when we go on weekend dives for training. As for purchases, we have tried discussing prices and there is no real dealing to be had, that I can see anyway. We do make some purchases there but it's safe to say that us women are bargain hunters! I know that guilty feeling though! But I can't afford not to shop around. It's just that feeling of being the traitor! I need to learn the ropes I guess. I enjoy talking with anyone and everyone. This "Club" thing. Is this a shop thing or are there just dive clubs to join. Sounds stupid but I haven't heard "Club" mentioned around here. I like the idea of the get togethers I saw pics of down in Ft. Meyers, I think. Looks like they have a great time together. I really enjoy the Scubaboard. I've learned so much this past year and I've made some friends!
thanks again,
Dawn

 

[Viv]

There are dive clubs in many areas that are not directly connected to shops. I actually belong to 2 in my area. It is a great way to meet people without "retail pressure." We have meetings with guest speakers and also plan trips.

I am also a "shop-aholic" and so I know what you mean when you are describing that pressure to remain loyal to one shop. As a matter of fact I shop in three separate grocery stores because I like the produce in one and the meat selection better in another. When you apply that same approach to dive gear it doesn't seem to work.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I guess I should add one more thing on this thread. It may seem unfreindly or selfish but...if you go to a restraunt or gas station or any other place of business and it becomes clear your not buying anything, how much attention do you get. In a dive shop we try to make everyone feel welcome. But..it is a business. We like to meet and dive with people but we are at work. We have family and freinds. We are not lonely. We are at work. Sometimes our customers become our freinds. In any other business this would be seen as a conflict of interest. I can't stay at the store late to catch up on repairs because we have visiors until 10pm. We can't spend all our time chatting and ignore the work and have nothing comming in. We spend most of our time entertaining. What I am saying is that the socializing takes a huge amount of time. Diving with customers takes a huge amount of time. We are not insincere, we enjoy what we do, but this huge investment in time is supposed to lead to sales. I have people who want to dive with me all the time and never spend a dime. When I dive with customers, I am at work. They want help. they want advice. They get it for free. I get something in return when they buy something. Who must I dive and socialize with, The customer who spends money or the ones that don't? See if the DiveInn folks will hangout, dive with you and be a free mentor and advisor. I even have people get put off when I take a day and do a cave dive or a deep wreck dive instead of diving with them at the local 20ft deep quarry. It is a tuff balancing act being everything to everyone and doing it all for online prices.

I just thought I would show the other side of the coin.

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by MikeFerrara
I just thought I would show the other side of the coin.

And you did it very well... thanks Mike... tough balancing act I'm sure... and unfortunately it probably cuts very deeply into your own time for enjoying diving and personal development.

How do you, as a professional in the dive industry, work around this... do you have dive buddies that are not (and cannot be) customers?

 

[Dawn]

Thanks Mike,
You are right, this is a tough situation. I want to share my new toys with the shop people (as friends) but I can't if I didn't buy them there. I'd buy them there if it were available or at least reasonably priced. But, I understand that doesn't always keep the shop running. My brother-in-law for instance was going to buy a BC in Chicago for $600 approx.(he lives there), my husband paid $470approx. (same BC older model) at our LDS a year ago and just purchased newer model for my Brother-in-law for $380 or $400 approx. thru Leisure Pro. There is quite a difference in prices out there. When I wanted my ProEars, the local shop wouldn't order them for me so I drove 1/2 hour and bought them. Thanks for reminding me of the other side of the coin. We have always been willing to pay a little more locally for that support without a problem. So tell me, is it appropriate to "tip" the instructors when you are out for the weekend at an area quarry if they give you advice, help or support? They have become friends, but you are right, they are basically working for the shop on those weekends.
Sincere about this,
Dawn

 

[kelpmermaid]

Dawn - just to clarify, are you talking about a dive club or about the atmosphere within the shops in question? Maybe I misunderstood, but it seems like two different issues are being mixed.

 

[large_diver]

I think it really depends on the shop and the people.....and the relationship you've created with them.

Still, getting the "cold shoulder" from folks when they learn you're training with another shop -- what stupidity! More customer service tales of woe! Newbies are in the shop -- they haven't bought their first set of gear yet -- and the shop treats them poorly. I think there is an obviuos difference between busy shop people and rude shop people.

I'm at a point now where I feel like I have a pretty good relationship with the folks that work at my LDS...maybe it's because I've finally hit a certain spending threshold (I'M JOKING!)

It has taken time to build this relationship -- not just money spent (although that is part of it). I actually haven't taken any training through them. In addition, I spent most of my first year as a diver shopping around at different LDSs, checking out the gear they offer, price comparing, etc. I took more than a year to buy my first full set of gear, largely piece by piece. I rented gear from 6 different shops in an attempt to try various brands/models of gear.

As a result, at the end of the first year, while I was certainly someone the various shop owners recognized, they didn't know me by name.

Fast forward to another year and a half later. I've been spending 90% of my time and money at one shop. They greet me by name when I walk in. Their advice is geniune ("you should check out the Abysmal on-line tank sale going on...our tanks are high-priced"). When I don't use the air in a rental tank (as in this past weekend), they give me a full refund. When I order a new tank as I did last week, they throw in a free 10 fill air card when I ask for it. When I want to do things like change reg hoses myself, they give me good advice. When I buy a new BP/wings set-up, they want me to bring it in so they can "check it out".

So on one hand I sympathize with Mike Ferrarra's comments......it is hard to run a small business with limited resources. Many customers have no conscience, and think nothing of sucking the LDS dry for advice and then buying on-line. New customers should not expect to walk into a shop and have the shop match on-line prices. THe creation of a good customer-LDS relationship is the responsibility of BOTH the customer and the LDS.

On the other hand, poor customer service is unacceptable. Customers can talk with their feet and their wallet. LDSs should work to start the relationship off on the right foot....

 

[MikeFerrara]

UP,
Good question. Not long ago, we were ready to close the shop and quit diving. Total burnout. Needless to say, this saddened us. We didn’t open a dive shop to learn to hate diving. Our answer was to do something that we had wanted to do for a long time but had never taken the time to do. We started cave diving. This also includes wreck dives that are beyond the scope of what most of our customers are going to do. This diving is for us. Periodically we go over the calendar and pick a day, weekend or even a week and plan some dives. If we can’t squeeze in a cave dive we might settle for a private photo session with the local fish population. These are usually family dives but there are a few others that we do such dives with. It may sound bad but we prefer that those we dive with be more accomplished than ourselves. No doubt, a first grade teacher is the most knowledgeable person in their classroom. But how do they stack up when they enter someone else’s classroom? These divers as you know have little use for a dive shop so they are never what you would call customers. Now, we like diving again. Believe it or not it requires discipline because there is always something else to do. In order for us to be any use to our customers we must like diving. As a teacher, I need to bring the enthusiasm and experience I gain doing my own diving, into the classroom. No matter how accomplished of a cave diver I become, I will never teach cave diving. I will talk about it. I will show pictures. However, it will never be business. I think too many instructors fail to grow as a diver beyond being an open water instructor. Many of those that do grow eventually give up teaching. This is a shame because they would be the best teachers. Our cave instructor, who is the best I have ever seen (in the classroom and in the water) gave up teaching recreational diving years ago when he realized it was preventing him from diving. Sometimes you must tell a customer/friend that if they want a buddy for their first night dive that they need to get someone else or take a class. Just like anything else some will take advantage. If you are a doctor your friends will want medical advice. If you are a lawyer they will want legal advice. We are still figuring it out. Better stop I’m rambling

 

[MikeFerrara]

Dawn,
In some cases tipping might be ok but you prabably need to be careful. If an instructor or DM from your lds(employee) dives with you and they are providing some service, say guiding or helping you set up some new equipment, and they are not charging, then I think a tip is ok. During classes I encourage students to tip the DM. These people work and help because they want to and outside of some in-store benifits they get no pay. Since I also own the store I don't take tips on the rare occasion that they are offered. Now, I will take beer or lunch or a return favor sometime. Like many people on this board have pointed out in this and other threads you do not owe a shop anything. They don't owe you anything until you give them money. They should be nice to you in the hopes of getting your business and you should be willing to pay for what you get including the many intangables that some shops provide. Many people could find that paying 50% more for a reg might just be an incredble bargain on the other hand if the reg is only a comodity (and a reg by itselfe is) and you want nothing else then it would be silly. For ten dollars over cost lets face it you get the reg and only the reg and the whole transaction had better be quick. large_diver is right a relationship takes time and needs to be mutually benificial.

Mike

 

[pt40fathoms]

Nice to know that we're not alone here. I though that the attitude and little clique's that I was experiencing at the local dive locations, and the "dive shop wars" that seemed to be going on was unique to my area.

The LDS that I frequent, is the one that treated me as a valued customer right from the start. They never spoke ill of any other shop, nor did they cut down a product that they did not carry. They did of course point out the benifits that they felt made the products they carried better. But always made a point of stating that the competitors produce is a fine and safe choice, if I chose to purchase it instead. This unpresured technique lead me to spend all my hard earned dollars there.

I suppose that we are lucky here, and have notice that in the last 12 months, this shop has grown allot! When I drop by for a fill, on every occasion, their has been someone making a purchase of a reg, bc, wet suit, or some other item over $500.00. If a lesson can be learned from this to other shops, it is "be nice" and "be professional". Treat your business as a business, not an exclusive hobbie, to be enjoyed by only a select few. This shop has been receiving my business, and in the last 30 days I have purchased the following:

1 - Mares 5/4/3mm wet suit
1 - Mares 7mm wet suit
1 - Mares 5mm Overshorty
1 - Mares Abyss Reg. & Octo.
1 - Sunto Pressure Guage
1 - Mares dive computer
1 - Mares ESA mask
1 - Mares Vector Platinum BC c/w weight integration.
1 - Aluminum 80 tank/valve/boot

As you may notice, they carry Mares as one of the produce lines. I have checked and found that if I purchased this gear online, I would have saved almost 20 percent. But if everyone did that, this LDS and many others would go under. If that happened, where would I go for free coffee, sound advice and a $5.00 air fill?