LDS Trip Pricing Out of Sight

[scubapolly]

I think you should consider who is going on the trip.

At my LDS - some trips are right in line with the do it yourself costs and some have a 4-5 hundred dollar mark up.

The difference "I THINK" is that on the trips with an in line cost - the trip leader/organizer travels as a single i.e. gets the free slot.

On the expensive ones the trip leader takes the girlfriend/wife/kids and you are paying for those extra folks to go free.

At least thats my 2 cents.

At my shop we "bid" on trips. You get so many points throughout the year depending on how many classes you teach. Only get one slot- and if there are multiple room types you get the cheapest ones (ie, you are in the quad on Aggessor), if you want to take a SO they have to pay. If you want a better room, you have to pay the difference. For that reason a lot of our married instructors with diving SOs opt for the cheaper trips.

 

[letterboy]

Believe me, I have the math right. The example I gave was not the worst one that I have seen. Last year when I returned from fantasy Island I saw the same trip priced for $1595. It had cost me about $1150 including everything except parking at the airport. When I politely mentioned this to the owner of the LDS, at the same time that I was buying something for about $400, he kind of fubbed around and avoided giving any kind of real answer.

OK, they might throw in a pre/post trip party, but that should not be worth more than $50 for both.

I could see paying more from the point of view of a new diver, especially the the one looking to make their qualifying open water dives, but I am way past that.

Personally, I see this as one more symptom of a sick industry that makes a great activity a bit less enjoyable.

Since you are obviously better than the rest of us and don't need to know people or talk to other people you know in your area just go ahead and book your trips on your own at your own risk so those of us who go on trips with our LDS's who know the people we dive with and know that if I am buddied with Becky I won't be killed if there is some problem at depth.

I thin k someone should move this over to the whine and cheese forum.

I do work at a dive shop and they are making money on gear sales a little from training but trips is one way that, at least aroound here, the LDS isn't making any money. My LDS uses an outside agent to arrange travel plans. Most trips everyone flys in on there own, This is cheaper, but once you hit the grund the dive leader whos trip is compinsated a bit, Does all the work from checking in at the hotel to the boat to making sure you don't get to drunk and end up in custody of the local law enforcment. We don't get anything like t-shirts or a dvd. . . You do have the ability to be able to come home go hand out with the friends you have made while on your trip and talk about that time in Roatan that Becky got so drunk she started doing the robot in the middle of the road. . . .

RANT OVER. . . for now. . .

 

[PhilEllis]

So let me get this straight, LDS's don't make money on Travel, and don't make money on training, they don't make money on air fills, they don't make money on service, and they BARELY scrape by on retail? I just don't buy it. They are all in business because they like us.. .hogwash! Our LDS runs a travel agency, are you suggesting they do so at a loss?

If LDS's don't make money on anything but retail (which is getting seriously undercut by internet sales) what the heck DO they make money on?

I'd LOVE to see the books on my LDS, because I think they make profit on EVERYTHING! I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Business are NOT in business to loose money, and loss leaders can only go so far.

Hi RonFrank. I am sad to say, you hit the nail on the head for MOST of the dive stores in the country. That may not be the case at A-1 (one of the larger stores in the country and I assume the one you are talking about) but it is the case for most of them. Just take a look at the attitude of this post. Let's say they guy is actually making $200 per person on the trip.......with 16 people, that's only a gross profit of $3200.00. There aren't many of those trips available to the average store. The sad fact is....most store owners work long, long hours for $25K or $30 a year. I know you are going to say, but they get to go diving for free. They aren't going diving. They are working. Not any different than any other job. Remember, some people pay $1500 a week to go out west and work on a "dude" ranch for a week. That doesn't mean that the regular ranch employees are "on vacation" when they work. They are working. lol I wish the situation was different, but it isn't. If something doesn't change, and change fast, there are going to be a lot fewer dive shops around to "overcharge" for trips. Anyway, just my thoughts.

Phil Ellis

 

[scubapolly]

As always, well said Phil

 

[cdiver2]

Why on earth would someone want to go as a group....and fill the dive boat to full capacity. Just got back from Curaco and there was a LDS group there. They had there own boat for every dive and it was FULL for every dive, our boat averaged about 1/2 full.

When you are not confined to one destination there are lots of bargains to be found, Curaco Sat-Sat...Flight from Tampa, room, breakfast, three boat dives (when ever I wanted them) unlimited shore diving (anywhere on the Island) $1499. LDS not making anything ! BS
For me Planing the trip is part of the fun of doing a dive trip and I can Tailor it to what I want not what the LDS owner or the group wants.

 

[miesemer]

In my experience...
Group air fare is more expensive than non-group fares. There are deposits for airfare that can range from $40 to $100 a seat required at the time the group reservation is made (some times this can be a nearly a year out). There are no free seats on airplanes anymore. Early deposits are also required on the land portions of the trip. There is a financial risk in assembling a group trip, i.e. losing deposits. There are costs to the shop to market the trip, costs to provide "freebies" such as t-shirts & DVD's of the trip, pre-trip meetings, post trip parties, not to mention the time involved in getting 30 divers to the destination and back while making sure they have a great time, assistance on the dive boat and planning land tours. Remember it's your vacation not the shop owners (which doesn't mean the shop owner isn't going to have a great time with you on your trip).

Yes shops make money and/or get free spots on trips. If you don't want to travel with a dive shop group... don't.

 

[JS1scuba]

I've been running trips for years before we had our PDC and now with our PDC. We are typically about $200-$500 more on a group trip than if you booked into that same resort directly. It's proportional to the trip. But here is why.

1. We manage everything.
2. We get everything done.
3. We have exclusive boats for our group only and never overload a boat
most times we have 2 - 3 boats.
4. We set our own schedules.
5. We pick our own crews.
6. We only go to the best spots.
7. We get the premier rooms.
8. Our meals are always top notch (when included)
9. We get red carpet treatment because we frequent the operations.
10. We get special treatment, options for clients who cancell at last minute.
11. We bring back up gear so you dont have to use rental junk.
12. We bring back up computers and cameras.
13. We bring the experience needed to manage it all.
14. We include all park fees and local taxes.

Travel margins for dive centers are small at best. It's not uncommon for me to have 20-30k out there in deposits for trips all over. We dont cancel trips. Once a single client books a trip we are committed to it. Whether we make our #s or not -- we take the clients. I've pony'd up my share on trips more than you can ever imagine. It's just part of being a pro. When we go and host a trip we are not on vacation, its work and anyone who thinks its not work is not working for YOU.

Our day starts typically 2 hours before and after a client's does making sure everyone is cared for, making sure the boats have the right amount of nitrox tanks, planning the dive day, working out that days itinerary to coordinate coming in late and having meals ready. Dealing with the sunburned client, getting that piece of equipment repaired before you get to the boat.... and so on.

I have yet to have a client ever ask me to match a web price on a trip. But they do repeat book over and over again.

A good professional dive center who runs travel well makes your experience one to remember in a positive way. You will find that those who do it well run trips all the time. Those who don't don't go often.

Enjoy,

 

[Batfish]

Amen Joel. Well said.

 

[farrakhan]

Why complain, if the price is too high at the LDS - DONT GO.

 

[Scared Silly]

This is a bit of side to Joel's list which is a great list and I think is what you should be paying for. And as Phil said the person going on the trip should be working for you to make your vacation what you want it to be

Now, as someone who just got back from an indepentdent trip who interacted with two different shop trips here are some observations.

Group 1. Heavily impacted the independent divers at the destination. I fault the destination 75% and the group 25%. The destination allocated all of their boats and then some to the group (eg. rented another boat). All other divers then had to adopt the group's schedule. The was especially irksome when were asked if we were joining them as if we should be so lucky to join 16 other divers. Another diver could not dive one day because the boats were full - yet on other days not all of the group was going to dive. So because the group had priority others were in limbo while they decided on a day to day basis.

On the first day the group leader did not have the group organized so although we were ready at 9:30am and the group was not ready until 11am. So we sat on the dock for 1.5 hours waiting. The leader's comment was this was normal but I did not see them doing much other than I noticed they were first at the dock and made little effort to round others up.

Once at the dive site one diver in the group forgot his Din to Yoke adapter. So the destination dive staff started to try and put together a reg set rather get tanks to everyone - the group leader should have given up his reg and sat out the dive. I never figured out what finally happened as I got my tank and went diving.

Several people in the group had been passing a cold around - one day one person who had it got on the boat we were on. I almost asked if they would mind going on another boat as we did not want to risk getting their cold but thought it would be really rude. Fortunately, we stayed healthy.

Lessons:

Destinations - if you have a large group coming and will joining the group with other divers, let the other divers know well head of time not the day they get there. We would have done the trip but because we has also planned other activities we would have planned our dive days different and the destination knew this months in advance.

Group Leaders - find out if you are intermixing your group with others. If so make sure your group is organized so it will have as little impact on others as possible.

Independent Divers - when booking ask about whether you will diving with a large group or how they handle large groups. We knew that ther boats held 6 divers which was the prefect number of divers. What we did not know is that they had two other boats and with a group everybody went to the same site.


Group #2. The people were great no problems. But the group had originally booked the whole boat (a live-a-board) but could not fill it. So they released 8 spots which we had 2. One of the folks from the group said on a similar trip they had to released the whole boat because they could not fill it and the operator was willing to let them use their deposit towards two spots so they were not totally out the money.

Lesson - People operating trips are going to make money on some trips and lose money on some. For instance, airlines break even if flights are something like 75% full. Shops running trips should be afforded something similar otherwise they are not going to be running trips. So I think to be fair people should figure the "profit" on a slightly less than full basis. E.g. 12 spots break even with 11, profit with 12.

If they did not this and shops consistantly lost money they would not do it or worse cancel the trip.

And just for what it is worth - I have not used a shop to book a trip but they have certainly helped me with mine. And I have shared info back to them on places I have gone that they have not.

Just my 2 pennies worth.