LDS vs. Online

[PhilEllis]

Symantics are fun, but they do not hide the "intent" of manufacturers to circumvent the law (and effectively control prices so they can not be varied in accordance with market demand).

Here is the essence....the Sherman Anti-Trust act prevents "agreements, vertical or horizonal" to regulate price. An agreement requires two parties reaching an agreement, verbal or oral, or otherwise. All schemes that involve "agreements" have been deemed PER SE illegal and decisions to this effect have been upheld since 1890 with complete unanamity by the appeals courts and by the Supreme Court. If a manufacturers policy does not require an agreement with the dealer (thereby being unilateral) it CANNOT violate the Sherman Anit-Trust act. It may not be fair...but the Sherman Anit-Trust Act does not regulate fairness.....it regulates "agreements" between two parties (plus a few other things like group boycotts) with regard to prices.

If the manufacturer does not reach an "agreement" with the supplier, they are not in violation as the case law now stands. Of course, a petitioner could make an argument that the threat of loss of the dealership is in effect a passive "agreement", one to which he was forced to participate in order to sell the product. Doing so would be admitting that they are a party to the "agreement", which places THEM in violation of the Sherman Anit-Trust Act. Being in violation of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act has serious and specified fines.....from memory, I think its minimum $25,000 for an individual and minimum $300,000 for a corporation....this is from memory and is probably wrong.

Once again, this is all my opinion. Thanks.

Phil Ellis
Dive Sports Online
www.divesports.com
(800) 601-DIVE

 

[Stu S.]

Ethics and legalities aside, my decisions on what to buy or rent (and where) are based largely on family economics. We are able to take a little money from the family earnings and fund two sports, golf and diving. It would be fun and easy to go to the local golf or dive shop to get outfitted with the latest and greatest. But...this would blow the budget.

We don't do these sports at the most expensive places. Our equipment is more than adequate for what needs to be done, although not all new or deluxe. We get our things both locally and on-line. I like buying locally, when it is reasonable. Particularly when the local dive shop has a 20% off everything sale. I have learned to find "bargains" and approach them carefully.

Being a diver does not obligate me to the dive shop closest to my home. My obligation is to keep the family funds in order. That way we can enjoy healthy outdoor activities and save for two kid's college at the same time.

 

[Scuba]

Good point, Stu S.

The bottom line is everyone's foremost responsibility is to provide for themselves and their families. It is the business entrepreneurs responsibility to identify what those needs and priorities are in order to device a strategy to profitably meet them.

Many of the commom business complaints, and in some cases the underhanded tactics used, arise from their difficulty to successfully compete with the additional challenged posed by other entrepreneurs in the competition for customers. .

Buyer beware.

 

[Jeff Toorish]

Hi all,

Sorry I haven't been more active in this thread that I started but I was away taking the AOW course this past weekend and simply could not get online. (But I did get the AOW cert, so it was well worth it.)

I'd like to clarify my original intent with this thread.

My sense of it is that the local dive shops provide a truly valuable service and, while their prices may be a bit more, that service is worth paying for. In the long run, isn't it better to be able to actually have someone standing next to you explaining how the BC works, and why it's the right fit for your specific SCUBA needs, rather than ordering from a (albeit less expensive) online operation?

Personally, if it is life preserving equipment, I like to talk up close and personal with someone who knows what they are talking about, rather than taking my chances with an Internet shopping cart.

During the course this weekend, I chatted with some other divers taking the AOW. One of them told me she had ordered and returned 4 or 5 wetsuits online before getting one that fit. When I bought my wetsuit, it was an a LDS and, with the guidance from the shop's owner, my first suit fit perfectly.

Again, none of this is intended as a shot at online merchants. As I mentioned, I have an online business myself. But, as I said, in the long run, isn't having a place to go where you can actually see and touch and try the equipment, especially when your life depends on it, better?

Safe diving

Jeff

 

[Scuba]

Personally, if it is life preserving equipment, I like to talk up close and personal with someone who knows what they are talking about, rather than taking my chances with an Internet shopping cart.

.......................

Again, none of this is intended as a shot at online merchants. As I mentioned, I have an online business myself. But, as I said, in the long run, isn't having a place to go where you can actually see and touch and try the equipment, especially when your life depends on it, better?

Congratulation on your AOW.

Picking up a piece of equipment without any knowledge of it or consultation with a knowledgeable person, and putting it in an online shopping cart or in the hands of a cashier are the same. You learn from your instructor, mentor if your lucky, or other good experienced divers. The more unbiased the better. Most salepersons fall into the highly biased category. There are independent instructors not beholden to any LDS. And the advise you get from an online merchant if you call them can be just as good or bad as a shop. In fact, an increasing number of retailers sell both online and in their shop, meaning you would receive the same advice.

One disadavantage to shopping online is that, as you mentioned, you can't personally inspect or tryout equipment, until you receive it. And that takes time, and may take several tries as in the example you give. Ultimately its a personal decision. Even though most divers, at least in the US, probably fall in the more affluent economic category, the majority of consumers list price #1,2,3,4,5 ....... as their primary consideration in making a purchase. All other considerations fall more into a more narrow niche category.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Hi all,

My sense of it is that the local dive shops provide a truly valuable service and, while their prices may be a bit more, that service is worth paying for. In the long run, isn't it better to be able to actually have someone standing next to you explaining how the BC works, and why it's the right fit for your specific SCUBA needs, rather than ordering from a (albeit less expensive) online operation?

If one needs or desires this service, it may be worth shoping someplace that offers it. I don't need some one to tell me how a bc works or whether or not it fits my needs though.

Personally, if it is life preserving equipment, I like to talk up close and personal with someone who knows what they are talking about, rather than taking my chances with an Internet shopping cart.

Again, some divers need the help. I know what regsm wings ect I like and there isn't much to talk about.

During the course this weekend, I chatted with some other divers taking the AOW. One of them told me she had ordered and returned 4 or 5 wetsuits online before getting one that fit. When I bought my wetsuit, it was an a LDS and, with the guidance from the shop's owner, my first suit fit perfectly.

When something needs to be tried on it can make things easier if you can put on the one you intend to buy. The best fit for manyu people is going to be a custome fit. A huge number of people just aren't shaped like those they make suits for.

In addition, most (at least some) wetsuit/dry suit manufacturers have sizing charts that reference specific body measurements. You can measure yourself.

Again, none of this is intended as a shot at online merchants. As I mentioned, I have an online business myself. But, as I said, in the long run, isn't having a place to go where you can actually see and touch and try the equipment, especially when your life depends on it, better?

Safe diving

Jeff

I used to hate buying mail order or internet and insisted on seeing everything I baught (scuba or not). As time goes on though I have a harder and harder time finding what I'm looking for in local stores. Everytime I drive all over town (around here that really means several towns) looking for something I never find, I swear I'll never do it again. There are so many things that I'm forced to buy mail order or online that I getting used to it and even prefer it. 5 minutes on the computer and I have what I want, often over night and at better prices. I could just give so many examples but you just don't find hardware and tool experts working in hardware and tool stores and all too often you just don't find diving experts working in dive shops. The selection is poor, the service is agrivating and the prices are way too high and...some one will probably roll a shoppng cart into the side of your car while you're in the store getting no place. LOL and yes that very thing happened to me a few days ago. Drive all over looking for something. Never found it, lost work time, wasted half a gas tank of liquid gold and got the truck smashed up by a shopping cart. Oh well. Just hand me the mouse. It even works after 5pm and on weekends!

 

[Stu S.]

It all sums up to what sort of value each of us assign to a product or service. Some of us find value in having a retail shop help us with our purchasing decisions, or having them around for service and training. Others don't find it of value.

Thinking as a consumer, the price of dive gear seems to high to me. When the average dive knife costs more than a circular saw at Lowe's, it sets me back a bit. After a trip through the rest of the consumer world, that dive mask at the LDS just doesn't "look" like an $80 item. I often get the same impression from younger people who are considering our sport.

Yes, we know why these things are expensive.

So...price is a big part of what I consider value. Not the only decision maker, but a big part.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Thinking as a consumer, the price of dive gear seems to high to me. When the average dive knife costs more than a circular saw at Lowe's, it sets me back a bit. After a trip through the rest of the consumer world, that dive mask at the LDS just doesn't "look" like an $80 item. I often get the same impression from younger people who are considering our sport.

Yes, we know why these things are expensive.

So...price is a big part of what I consider value. Not the only decision maker, but a big part.

It's not just the price of the gear. Your dive knife example is a good one. Most of those expensive knives aren't even very good...at least not for some one looking for a cutting tool as insurance against entanglements because they don't cut very well. How many dive shops would tell you that a $2 kitchen knife from a dollar store (maybe broke off to make it a little shorter, makes a great dive knife? LOL

The mask example is good too. I'm one of those people who doesn't have much of a choice in masks because I have a VERY hard time finding one that fits. I got both my masks when I owned a shop but they are masks we got from scubamax or someplace like that. I think I paid 12 or 15 bucks for them. Don't quote me on the exact price but they weren't much. If I was on the other side of the counter it would have cost more than that but those masks have been all over the place and in the worst conditions that you'll find underwater and they're still going. I guess you could buy a $100 mask if you want but why would you want too? LOL but look at the price of some of those masks!

 

[trixiegirl1970]

I am a newbie to actually buying vs. renting. I have always had to rent because I couldn't afford dive shop prices and they always told me never to trust online dealers. Now maybe I have only been into bad lds... I don't know, but they never went out of their way to explain the differences between devices because my initial conversation was to get the most of my money cuz I don't have alot. So as soon as they find out I can't sport the bill for the whole set up at once, they had no info to offer. Online, I can find all the info I want... so why is it ethical to research online --get info from places like this then go shop in a lds? I heard several of you say you run online shops... why can I take your info and go to them if the reverse is unethical? Just a thought ...

 

[Louie]

I am a newbie to actually buying vs. renting. I have always had to rent because I couldn't afford dive shop prices and they always told me never to trust online dealers. Now maybe I have only been into bad lds... I don't know, but they never went out of their way to explain the differences between devices because my initial conversation was to get the most of my money cuz I don't have alot. So as soon as they find out I can't sport the bill for the whole set up at once, they had no info to offer. Online, I can find all the info I want... so why is it ethical to research online --get info from places like this then go shop in a lds? I heard several of you say you run online shops... why can I take your info and go to them if the reverse is unethical? Just a thought ...

Excellent point.

I was rather perturbed by how the term "unethical" was being thrown about. My understanding of unethical was something to do with conduct (not quite illegal) with serious consequences - so very questionable morally.

Now, trying on equipment in a shop after having compared online could hardly be deemed unethical. At worst, it's being an annoying customer - and anybody who's worked in a dive shop has experienced many.

Technology has changed the marketplace and the way we do business - dive gear and everything else. Those who have been successful are those who'd adapted AND continued to provide good prices, service and customer satisfaction.