Leisurepro.com + suunto

[Otter]

scubasean once bubbled...
...As to what LP does with the broken computer, I care not. I only care what the effect is on me, which is the $150 savings.

Given the fact that I often see certain items "Out of Stock" for weeks, what happens if you happen to need a replacement and they can't get one for weeks....or perhaps ever (like if their source went out of biz or to jail -- sorry had to throw that one in). This must have happened in the past, do they give you a credit towards something they have or your money back -- really just curious, I am sure they do something.

Anyone going to comment on the moral/ethical issue of buying equipment illegally obtained? If it matters not to you, then what if it was obtained illegally (i.e. stolen) by way of a crime vs a civil issue?

 

[Genesis]

Anyone going to comment on the moral/ethical issue of buying equipment illegally obtained? If it matters not to you, then what if it was obtained illegally (i.e. stolen) by way of a crime vs a civil issue?

Their gear is not "hot", it was legally obtained through the exchange of money for product.

Constraints on who you can sell to are not binding (legally or ethically) on the buyer, as he/she is not a party to any such agreement, and most are void on their face as contrary to various laws anyway.

 

[Otter]

Genesis once bubbled...


Their gear is not "hot", it was legally obtained through the exchange of money for product.

The exchange of money for product does not make it legal. Buying stolen goods is illegal even if you pay money to the burglar. I WOULD agree that the LP is not a party to the civil action as it was the supplier that is in violation of its contract.

Constraints on who you can sell to are not binding (legally or ethically) on the buyer, as he/she is not a party to any such agreement, and most are void on their face as contrary to various laws anyway.

The question wasn't whether it was illegal for someone to buy the product, the question was is it unethical/immoral to KNOWINGLY buy goods that were obtained through an illegal activity. By virtue of the fact that LP is NOT an authorized dealer, it is near certain that the supplier violated their contract with the manufacturer. The only scenario I can conjur up is if LP bought at retail and sells the product at a loss (or there was an intermediary willing to do the same).

SO IS IT UNETHICAL/IMMORAL?

 

[Genesis]

The question wasn't whether it was illegal for someone to buy the product, the question was is it unethical/immoral to KNOWINGLY buy goods that were obtained through an illegal activity. By virtue of the fact that LP is NOT an authorized dealer, it is near certain that the supplier violated their contract with the manufacturer.

There are places on this planet where restraining resale, price and trade is illegal.

If you source product in that location, you have done nothing wrong, and neither has the seller.

BTW, if you want to have a moral/ethics discussion, let's talk about the ethics/morals of evading the clear intent of the law in the United States with policies that (1) have caused various vendors (e.g. Nine West) to get sued and who settled and ceased that practice, and (2) which are clearly intentioned and structured to get around the law.

If the latter was not the case, why not have each dealer sign a contract to maintain retail prices? Ask yourself that one....

 

[LUBOLD8431]

DOH!!!

And I thought Genesis might have stayed out of this one...

Naahhhhhh.....

 

[Otter]

Genesis once bubbled...


There are places on this planet where restraining resale, price and trade is illegal.

If you source product in that location, you have done nothing wrong, and neither has the seller.

BTW, if you want to have a moral/ethics discussion, let's talk about the ethics/morals of evading the clear intent of the law in the United States with policies that (1) have caused various vendors (e.g. Nine West) to get sued and who settled and ceased that practice, and (2) which are clearly intentioned and structured to get around the law.

If the latter was not the case, why not have each dealer sign a contract to maintain retail prices? Ask yourself that one....

I can only control WHAT I DO. I can't control what dealers, manufacturers, or even LeisurePRo does. If I believe that someone is doing an illegal practice, then I will not support it. MY INTEGRITY IS WORTH MORE THAN $150. I have wanted a Vytec for awhile, but will not pay the $1k+ that Sport Chalet (an authorized dealer / chain) is charging. As I understand it, LP is an authorized Aeris dealer and so I am considering an AI Elite. One could argue that I am 'hurting' Suunto/Aqualung MORE by buying a competitor's product than by buying gray market.

Now you might argue that buying anything from and LDS supports the illegal price fixing that is going on in the industry. If in fact there is ILLEGAL price fixing, are there lawsuits? My first hand knowledge of the agreements my LDS has is that they can't ADVERTISE more than 15% below MSRP and that they can't sell ONLINE. I don't believe EITHER are illegal, stupid, short-sighted, and anti-consumer perhaps, but not illegal. My understanding of anti-trust law is that manufacturers CAN'T dictate the price to a separate business.....and I can tell you from personal experience that the amount of discount given at the LDS varies greatly and has been below the 15% limit -- heck, I have seen the equipment given away.

To your point that it is not CERTAIN that someone is commit an illegal act. Do you have specific information? Have you talked to LP's buyers and determined where they get their equipment or are you rationalizing your desire to save a buck as to being ethical because "there must be somewhere where they can get the gear without violating an agreement." I wonder if the agreement that these purported European dealers have prevents the export of the equipment. I wonder if the dealers are going through proper custom's channels -- I don't know either way, but I do wonder -- assuming of course the gray market products are coming from Europe.

To be clear, I am not indicting online vendors over LDS -- there are other issues that potentially arise as to the outcome of the online/LDS wars that worry me -- and I have written about them in other threads -- hopefully I will be wrong and we won't all be in trouble.

I am questioning the support of questionable biz practices and if you are ok with these, when where is the line? Theft? Child or prison labor (e.g. Nike), sweat shops ? Where does the consumer draw the line and say we don't want products that are produced/distributed in an illegal manner? So to my title line, I can only [directly] control MY ACTIONS.

Otter

 

[SeaJay]

reubencahn once bubbled...
Incidentally, I don't have any experience with LP's warranty.

Funny you should mention that... I do. This was my experience:

I bought a new Scubapro MK16/S550/R380 reg set from Leisurepro. I was impressed at first. Service was great, price was phenominal, and of course, I liked the regs very much.

Five months and 110 dives later, the regs were freeflowing at every opportunity.

I stopped by the only place I really trusted - Extreme Exposure in High Springs, FL - and asked them to check the regs. They told me that the 1st stage (MK16) wasn't holding correct pressure and that I needed to have them serviced. Since I live in SC, I decided to have them serviced locally.

...Which was a huge mistake. I got many prices (all of them seemed to be half the price of a new reg set - imagine a $10,000 oil change on a $20,000 car) and went with the shop that promised only to fix what was broken and service the rest. In the end I ended up getting raped for $120 and made fun of by the owner for diving a long hose. Idiot. He has no idea what he lost when I walked out of his store. The bottom line was that I was $120 lighter and my regs were worse than when I started.

...So I called Leisurepro back and complained about the fact that my five month old reg set was trash. I sent them back, and they gave me a full credit for the purchase price of my regs.

...So I used the credit to buy a new set of Apeks regs... Including the awesome ATX200.

...Try THAT with a manufacturer's warranty. Do you think that, after my experience with the Scubapro regs, I really want another Scubapro?

...And guess what? I'll buy from LP again and again. Thanks, guys. I need another ATX200 set for doubles, and RavenC's in the market for all of her regs and a pair of AL63's. Those sales will definitely be coming your way.

...And my LDS? Man, if they had any clue how bad they screwed themselves...

FYI: The entire above story sits in the "Regulators" section of this board, if you want more detail.

I bought my Suunto computer online... And will do it again for RavenC's computer. FYI, I prefer the prices and customer service of http://www.ass.com.sg for Suunto... And yes, they're an authorized Suunto dealer. Tell Eric that SeaJay said hello.

 

[large_diver]

Chuck,

My comment wasn't meant to criticize you...it was just an example of something that I have experienced all too often -- dive shop employees that are not adding value to a particular transaction due to lack of product knowledge.

As with any business, you some have folks like yourself who take pride in their job, know their products well, and provide value-added advice. On the other hand, there are plenty of LDS employees who do not do these things.

I've experienced both types of employees -- I'm sure we all have....and since there are plenty of the non-value-added type out there, I get a little unnerved when I hear LDS folks talking about what a mistake it is to buy on-line and how the LDS buying experience adds so much more value.

-C

 

[Genesis]

What questionable business practice, specifically, are you alleging that LP is engaged in?

I've seen no evidence of ANY so-called questionable practice.

What I HAVE seen is a company taking care of its customers. A company that happens to BE AN LDS; if you live in NYC you can walk right into their store just like any other LDS.

So precisely what, may I ask, are you complaining about?

 

[kENO]

LUBOLD8431 once bubbled...
Let me ask you online shoppers something:

Would you buy a brand new CAR without a warranty?

Would you buy a brand new Plasma TV without a warranty?

What about a brand new personal computer?

Or a household appliance???

WHy is it that people think that the warranty that they will receive from the manufacturer (the ONLY real warranty) with their new LIFE SUPPORT EQUIPMENT is junk, and not worth anything...

The almighty dollar... thats what this is all about.


Thats what dive equipment is people, LIFE SUPPORT EQUIPMENT...

AND you dont want to buy that from someone who is a professional retailer that knows every aspect of that piece of equipment???

OK, well, anyone that wants a BRAND NEW BMW 7 series, WITHOUT a WARRANTY, PM Me...

buying from a lds fine

some of the local shops dont know the aspect or every aspect of each piece of equipment they sell...they might know what they have in stock but not everything... this is where we come to the web to gather information on certain products to narrow are field of choices, then after that why not shop on line for the product you want at the best price you can get for it, there nothing wrong with that