Logged dives that "count"

[TMHeimer]

Maybe PADI is the standard, but IMO they have been somewhat poor in ensuring their standard means putting out quality divers as long as I have been diving. A dude that was in my OW class completed his DM training when I was doing AOW. This was after he had been diving 3 months in exactly one location, the BH. I asked for an air check and he turned my air off! LOL! He did not know right-e tight-e / lefty Lucy I guess. Fortunately the individuals that I know who are Instructors are fine individuals whom have been teaching for decades, but I am sure experience varies. I am not clear why so many instructors are as good as they are, obviously they are dedicated. I bet the newbies get an education from the veterans in a shop when they start instructing.

You make some good points Ron. When you say "ensuring the standard", that may translate to PADI at times being vague. That was another reason I asked the original question about what "counts" as a dive. On another forum (not on SB) there was a recent debate about PADI's OW swim requirement of 200 meters/yards vs. 300 with mask/fins/snorkel. The question was who gets to pick, instructor or students? The answer (from PADI) was (to paraphrase): The instructor decides and his decision is final. But if a student is "unable" (ei. disabled in some way?--or just not very good at straight swimming without fins?) to do the 200, it is "good customer service" to offer the 300--If the student can meet all the other requirements (the only other swim test is the 10 minute float--I would ASSUME the student could accomplish all the skills....), we don't want to hold up certification because he/she can't do a 200 meter swim. I put all that into my own words and trimmed it down, but this is exactly what PADI said. I don't like that vagueness. If the 200 swim is important enough to be a requirement, all students should have to do it. If some can't, would they not be at some risk diving? If it's not that important, it shouldn't be required. I didn't bring this up to get into discussions about swim tests (lord, enough of that), but just to show another example of vagueness. IMO, regardless of how many dives one should need to log to enter a course, or what kind of skills one has, there should be some official description of what one of those dives must consist of. It wouldn't be a whole lot of work for someone to write that out.

 

[k ellis]

You make some good points Ron. When you say "ensuring the standard", that may translate to PADI at times being vague. That was another reason I asked the original question about what "counts" as a dive. On another forum (not on SB) there was a recent debate about PADI's OW swim requirement of 200 meters/yards vs. 300 with mask/fins/snorkel. The question was who gets to pick, instructor or students? The answer (from PADI) was (to paraphrase): The instructor decides and his decision is final. But if a student is "unable" (ei. disabled in some way?--or just not very good at straight swimming without fins?) to do the 200, it is "good customer service" to offer the 300--If the student can meet all the other requirements (the only other swim test is the 10 minut float--I would ASSUME the student could accomplish all the skills....), we don't want to hold up certification because the can't do a 200 meter swim. I put all that into my own words and trimmed it down, but this is exactly what PADI said. I don't like that vagueness. If the 200 swim is important enough to be a requirement, all students should have to do it. If some can't, would they not be at some risk diving? If it's not that important, it shouldn't be required. I didn't bring this up to get into discussions about swim tests (lord, enough of that), but just to show another example of vagueness. IMO, regardless of how many dives one should need to log to enter a course, or what kind of skills one has, There should be some official description of what one of those dives must consist of. It wouldn't be a whole lot of work for someone to write that out.

Very true. Very true but I think the honest answer that comes in to play and is the safest all around answer is simply the instructor signing off on the requirements (Post Open Water Cert) is the one who accepts what is an open water dive or not. If you go in with 40 dives at 5 feet for 10 minutes I don't think they would accept that. But if the instructor sees a challenging dive at 10 feet for 20 minutes (1 foot visibility 50 degrees search and recovery for example) he may accept it as being eligible. PADI may never even see the dives unless the DMC filed a formal complaint (Most would not after the extreme investment alone) and therefore they would simply accept that the instructors word is good enough.

PADI certifies thousands of DMs world wide monthly so to nit pick each and every one of them is highly improbable.

 

[nimoh]

I believe the 50 dives is a guideline at the discretion of the instructor. Your log book is not submitted to the agency (at least in the case of PADI).

Most instructors (IMHO) would allow a couple of short dives due to problems, but if 10 of your 50 dives were short due to problems, I think most instructors would question your ability to maintain and assemble your gear.

On the flip side, if you have been diving with your instructor a few times, they may overlook some log book issues based on your ability.

Ultimately, the log book isn't proof of anything since you can easily write down fake dives (but you wouldn't be doing yourself any favors)

 

[TMHeimer]

k ellis & nimoh, I agree with both of you on everything. Being a nit-picker by nature, I would still at least like to see some minimum of specific requirements for a logged dive. At least "officially". Then instructors could still use some discretion. I don't like: dives count as long as "specifics" are noted. "OK, I dived in a 5 foot quarry for 5 minutes, the viz was, I wore a shortie....that's one dive".Now it becomes solely up to the instructor with no real input from the certifying agency. But hey, we don't live in a perfect world.

k, I like your analogy of graduating/grammar skills compared to logged dives vs. diving ability. Lord knows I've "Whined and Cheezed" enough about poor grammar on SB. It is probably safe to assume, however, that in general, the % of people who use proper grammar who are HS Grads is probably higher than those who are drop outs. Yes, there are self-made millionaires with 9th grade educations, and there are also great divers that aren't even certified, but those are exceptions.