Looking for Atlantis the Lost Continent ...

[debajo agua]

Anything you find about Atlantis will be just as valuable as the Bible; complete horse crap.

In his own time, there can hardly be a doubt that Heinrich Schliemann heard similar words. Homer's lost city, was regarded as nothing more than a mere fantasy. In the 19th century, Schliemann paid no heed to the nay-sayers, and he went on to find the lost city Troy. If I could suggest a book on the subject, it would be Robert Payne's "The Gold Of Troy". It's more or less a Biography about Schliemann but his story is one that changed the history books forever.

 

[vapourinthesea]

That's the point I was going to bring up. The Bible has said forever about the city of Troy, but everyone said no it doesn't exist. So following the Bible and other documentations Heinrich went out to find Troy and did. I totally think that there was an Atlantis...but where, and to what degree, and so forth who knows.

 

[BLoaf]

What bible talks about Troy?

 

[boulderjohn]

In his own time, there can hardly be a doubt that Heinrich Schliemann heard similar words. Homer's lost city, was regarded as nothing more than a mere fantasy. In the 19th century, Schliemann paid no heed to the nay-sayers, and he went on to find the lost city Troy. If I could suggest a book on the subject, it would be Robert Payne's "The Gold Of Troy". It's more or less a Biography about Schliemann but his story is one that changed the history books forever.

I am quite familiar with the story of Troy and its excavations by Schliemann. There is no meaningful comparison here.

The stories of the battles associated with Troy were handed down from generation to generation through the memorized songs of the bards for hundreds of years before they got to the versions we know today. (Whoever Homer may have been, he would have lived about 400 years after the fall of Troy.) This was (and still is) the process by which illiterate people kept their histories alive. An analysis of those stories (and there are many more than the well-known Iliad) show that a number of stories from several different points in history were blended into the final narrative. The story of Ajax, for example, probably comes from a time 100 years before the tine of that war. Regardless of whatever inaccuracies may have intruded into the original stories through the oral transmission of the stories in an illiterate society, there is an unbroken narrative link going back to the original time period.

Additionally, not everyone thought the story was mere fantasy. Schliemann dug for Troy in the place that for 2,000 years people were saying was the site of Troy.

The opposite is true of the story of Atlantis. Plato lived in a very sophisticated age. The entire Mediterranean area was filled with learned people. They traveled and interacted with people of other nations regularly. They wrote prolifically, and a very large amount of the writing from that time survives to this day. Historians in several nations wrote extensive histories that we can still read today. In all that writing in all those nations that knew each other so well, there is not a mention of Atlantis until Plato wrote about it in such vivid detail. If it all indeed happened as he so clearly describes (and long before the time of the Minoans), how on Earth could he have known about it?

So why would he make the story up?

Plato's primary goal in life was to create an ideal state, a society discussed in his comparison of Atlantis and Athens. He tried very hard to do that in Syracuse by assisting his friend and disciple Dion to educate its ruler, Dionysius II, to form that perfect government. Dionysius II was first impressed enough to get on the path, but when he realized that he could not form the ideal society and still be a profligate despot with tyrannical powers, he changed his mind.

There is no question in my mind that Plato intended his description of Atlantis to serve as a fictional example of an ideal society. Sir Thomas More did the same thing in 1516 with Utopia. Everyone understood what More was trying to do then, and I am pretty sure that every one of Plato's contemporaries would have understood that as well. Plato would be shocked to learn that people thought he was serious more than two millenia later.

 

[debajo agua]

I sincerely appreciate your obvious-educated take on the Atlantis story; however, the story didn't originate with Plato. Plato merely wrote down an intellectual conversation he had amongst his circle of friends. According to Plato's writing, the story was brought from Egypt by the Greek Statesman Solon. I edited a prior post (two post back) in this thread and I added quite-a-bit as to the origin of the story. I would be delighted if you would read it and respond.

 

[boulderjohn]

I sincerely appreciate your obvious-educated take on the Atlantis story; however, the story didn't originate with Plato. Plato merely wrote down an intellectual conversation he had amongst his circle of friends. According to Plato's writing, the story was brought from Egypt by the Greek Statesman Solon. I edited a prior post (two post back) in this thread and I added quite-a-bit as to the origin of the story. I would be delighted if you would read it and respond.

Look at the key element in bold above: "According to Plato's writing." In other words, you know that Plato did not invent the story because in writing the story he says he didn't make up the story.

Solon lived about 200 years before Plato. At the time he lived, Greece was very different from the time that Plato lived. There is very little documentary evidence from that time. Little that Solon wrote survives, and most scholars think that much of what historians later said he believed in his time really shows what those writers believed abut their own times. In other words, his reputation was being used as a a ploy to give what they believed credibility.

Can you find any evidence from any writer prior to Plato indicating that Solon (who again lived more than 200 years before Plato) relayed any information about Atlantis to later generations of Greeks, let alone the details in Plato's description? Can you find any evidence in any Egyptian writings of such knowledge?

---------- Post added ----------

It's refer to as a story told by Plato, when actually, it's a story of the Greek Statesman Solon. When Solon visited Egypt in the 5th century B.C., the Egyptian record keepers (priest) regarded him with much respect, as he was a descendant of the great city of Athens, which was one of the few Polis (City States) that resisted the invasion of the Atlantians (again, this is according to the Egyptian records). Here is where the story originates, not as I've seen it repetitively wrong, with Plato.

No, the story begins with Plato. The story about Solon going to Egypt is part of Plato's story. There is no accurate information from Solon coming from his own time. The first reference to his visit to Egypt comes from the Herodotus, the man called both the father of history and the father of lies. Herodotus describes the trip to Egypt in detail, but there is no mention of Atlantis. Plato, living 200 years after Solon, is the first to say that he learned about Atlantis there.

 

[debajo agua]

Look at the key element in bold above: "According to Plato's writing." In other words, you know that Plato did not invent the story because in writing the story he says he didn't make up the story.

Wait a minute here, I didn't say "I know".

Solon lived about 200 years before Plato. At the time he lived, Greece was very different from the time that Plato lived. There is very little documentary evidence from that time. Little that Solon wrote survives, and most scholars think that much of what historians later said he believed in his time really shows what those writers believed abut their own times. In other words, his reputation was being used as a a ploy to give what they believed credibility.

In Plato's dialogues of Timaeus and Critias, Critias is the only person who speaks of Atlantis; it is not a story told by Plato, only recorded by Plato. Critias is Plato's uncle, who lived from 460 BC – 403 BC... Solon lived from 638 BC – 558 BC. I'll have to do some research on whether Critias claims to have heard the story directly from Solon, or was it repeated to Critias by another. Anyhow, In the dialogs Critias starts his story by saying that he was very young when he heard the story. He ask for a day to recall the details of the story. The next day the circle meets and Critias begins his story.

Can you find any evidence from any writer prior to Plato indicating that Solon (who again lived more than 200 years before Plato) relayed any information about Atlantis to later generations of Greeks, let alone the details in Plato's description? Can you find any evidence in any Egyptian writings of such knowledge?

As I mentioned before, Solon traveled to Egypt and the story was told there. The Greeks were just coming out of 600 - 700 years of dark ages, so I doubt anyone, other than the Egyptians, had any written record of any prior historical events. However, the philosopher Crantor, a student of Xenocrates, who in turn was a student of Plato. Crantor actually visited Egypt, had conversations with priests, and saw hieroglyphs confirming the story or as claiming that he learned about them from other visitors to Egypt.

The Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo in the early 1st century AD wrote about the destruction of Atlantis in his On the Eternity of the World, xxvi. 141:

...And the island of Atalantes which was greater than Africa and Asia, as Plato says in the Timaeus, in one day and night was overwhelmed beneath the sea in consequence of an extraordinary earthquake and inundation and suddenly disappeared, becoming sea, not indeed navigable, but full of gulfs and eddies.

The ancient philosophers Strabo and Posidonius also believe the account written by Plato.

In short, the answer to your question is yes, outside of Plato, others have wrote about it in the distant past.

No, the story begins with Plato. The story about Solon going to Egypt is part of Plato's story. There is no accurate information from Solon coming from his own time. The first reference to his visit to Egypt comes from the Herodotus, the man called both the father of history and the father of lies. Herodotus describes the trip to Egypt in detail, but there is no mention of Atlantis. Plato, living 200 years after Solon, is the first to say that he learned about Atlantis there.

Actually, as mentioned before, it's Critias' story, not Plato's... And so what if Herodotus didn't hear of the story of Atlantis in his travels? If I visit England, someone should remind me of the American Revolutionary War? I may, or may not hear it spoke of.

Let me say further, that I'm not trying to convince you, or anyone else, of anything. I've learned through out the years, that people will believe what they want to believe. I've also learned, that for some odd reason, many people get upset and take it very personal when you start asking questions about "what they know to be true." I myself try to keep an open mind. History has been rewrote before, who's to say it won't be rewrote again?

 

[boulderjohn]

Wait a minute here, I didn't say "I know" anything.

It's the universal "you'--meaning people in general.

In Plato's dialogues of Timaeus and Critias, Critias is the only person who speaks of Atlantis; it is not a story told by Plato, only written down by Plato. Critias is Plato's uncle, who lived from 460 BC – 403 BC... Solon lived from 638 BC – 558 BC. I'll have to look up whether Critias claims to have heard the story directly from Solon, or was it repeated to Critias by another. In the dialogs, Critias starts his story by saying that he was very young when he heard the story. He ask for a day to recall all the details of the story. The next day the circle meets and Critias begins his story.

Try to follow this. Critias did not write it down. Plato did. That means no one wrote the story before Plato did. That means Plato wrote it first.

Let's say that I write that in 1863 Abraham Lincoln told my great great grandfather that there would in the future be a company named Starbucks selling coffee all across the country. Does that prove that Lincoln had great powers of prediction and was a personal friend of my great great grandfather, or does it prove that I am able to make up a story about Lincoln 150 years later?

As I mentioned before, Solon traveled to Egypt and the story was told to him there. The Greeks were just coming out of 600 - 700 years of dark ages, so I doubt anyone, other than the Egyptians, had any written record of any prior historical events. However, the philosopher Crantor, a student of Xenocrates, who in turn was a student of Plato. Crantor actually visited Egypt, had conversations with priests, and saw hieroglyphs confirming the story or as claiming that he learned about them from other visitors to Egypt.

How do you know he did? Although he was a prolific author in his day, nothing that he wrote along those lines exists today. The information to which you refer comes to us from a man named Procus, who told the story of Crantor visiting Egypt roughly 700 years later. In fact, the passage about seeing the hieroglyphics to which you refer is ambiguous and may not be referring to Crantor at all.

The Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo in the early 1st century AD wrote about the destruction of Atlantis in his On the Eternity of the World, xxvi. 141:

...And the island of Atalantes which was greater than Africa and Asia, as Plato says in the Timaeus, in one day and night was overwhelmed beneath the sea in consequence of an extraordinary earthquake and inundation and suddenly disappeared, becoming sea, not indeed navigable, but full of gulfs and eddies.

The ancient philosophers Strabo and Posidonius also believe the account written by Plato.

In short, the answer to your question is yes, outside of Plato, others have wrote about it in the distant past.

...and they repeated other stories from Greek mythology as if they were historically accurate as well. Again, this is all hundreds of years after Plato.

Additionally, although some did believe what Plato wrote, most did not. In his book Greek Mythography in the Roman World, historian Alan Cameron says, "It is only in modern times that people have taken the Atlantis story seriously; no one did so in antiquity."

Actually, as mentioned before, it's Critias' story, not Plato's...

And again it was Plato, not Critias, who wrote it, so it was Plato's story.

 

[debajo agua]

No, the story begins with Plato. The story about Solon going to Egypt is part of Plato's story. There is no accurate information from Solon coming from his own time. The first reference to his visit to Egypt comes from the Herodotus, the man called both the father of history and the father of lies. Herodotus describes the trip to Egypt in detail, but there is no mention of Atlantis. Plato, living 200 years after Solon, is the first to say that he learned about Atlantis there.

I'd like to add a little more. In order to write what Plato wrote, he would have had to slander his uncle Critias, the name of Solon, the audience including Socrates, and the Egyptians. Those of you that have read his other works e.g. the Symposium, or The Republic, should see that this wasn't Plato's style at all. How on Earth the notion that Atlantis was some sort of metaphor for the ideal society, and that Plato was willing to slander his companions to illustrate a point, is totally out of character (not to mention it should have angered his friends and family). Why this theory caught on, and is often repeated, stifles me. It has no basis in fact, yet, it is often the voice of the parrots of the academy.

 

[boulderjohn]

I'd like to add a little more. In order to write what Plato wrote, he would have had to slander his uncle Critias, the name of Solon, the audience including Socrates, and the Egyptians. Those of you that have read his other works e.g. the Symposium, or The Republic, should see that this wasn't Plato's style at all. How on Earth the notion that Atlantis was some sort of metaphor for the ideal society, and that Plato was willing to slander his companions to illustrate a point, is totally out of character (not to mention it should have angered his friends and family). Why this theory caught on, and is often repeated, stifles me. It has no basis in fact, yet, it is often the voice of the parrots of the academy.

What slander?

Not only is it not out of character for Plato to do this, it was totally in character and totally in character with the traditions of the day. As I mentioned earlier, it was in Plato's day common for people to ascribe their own theories of government to Solon, even though he may have had nothing to do with them. It was a common rhetorical practice.

as for "Why this theory caught on," That's the way it as pretty much always believed in antiquity. It was not until much later that the theory that the story of Atlantis was real began to catch on.

---------- Post added ----------

I should have pointed out before that Plato believed that all art should serve the purpose of educating the populace about the ideals they should strive to reach in personal life and in society. If he had been allowed to govern, all theater (and other art) would have been along the lines of the theater of the USSR and communist China--stories designed to make sure the people learned the communist ideals.

That tradition has also has a history in our own country. The first biography of George Washington was written by a minister named Parson Weems. He wanted to make sure that people who read the story of this great man would improve their lives through this experience. For example, he believed that people should tell the truth, so he created a story about a young George Washington telling the truth about cutting down a cherry tree, a total fiction that is believed by many to this day. Wanting people to be properly pious, he fabricated a story about Washington being seen kneeling in prayer in the snow at Valley Forge, a fiction with such a touching image that it inspired a famous painting and is still perpetuated to this day.