Depending what you mean by "in the scuba business", the government in the UK, in the form of one of its agencies, IS already there. And actually it doesn't work badly.
Most disturbing phone call I've gotten in a long time
- Thread starter Jim Lapenta
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aikiguy
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Really... I am not picking on Padi. I even stated if I were in the industry I would sign up immediately.
I am not arguing in any way for the elimination of PADI.
Manuals and classes. I like my manuals technical and to explain in as much detail as possible what is happening, why it is happening, and what control I have over it. Padi wants to make it all as simple as possible to market it to everyone. That is fine. It isn't what I like. I now realize that padi classes and manuals are the minimum required for the subject at hand. The problem arises if you take something away or miss something from the minimum as an instructor you are now less than what is needed for minimum safety standards.
I also hate that the first two pages of any Padi manual are dedicated to selling me more classes, more resort vacations etc, as are the last pages. Along with marketing on taking more classes in the middle.... The minimum technical information with the maximum marketing material. The blatant marketing over and over and over again when I have paid for the book, paid for the class. It just gets old... I don't like being marketed to in a 37 page manual that I have just paid over $75.00 for.. When the material is a minimum and the marketing is a maximum, then are we being instructed or subjected to advertising?
"PADI does not sell gear"... No their members do. They market the hobby in it's entirety. Every padi dive store, and most instructors are associated with a store, sell gear. You can't dive without gear, padi markets the hobby, Padi is in the majority of stores that sells gear; marketing the fun of the hobby with photos of everyone wearing gear. They are marketing gear in general.
I even have stated that more divers are good for all of us.... Get more people diving, Padi is great at that... More people is a larger market is lower prices increased competition, and can even lead to increased quality providers entering the market. More people is in a lot of cases better for the environment too. People will fight a lot harder for the preservation of coral reefs when they have seen one first hand.
I am not jealous, or vindictive or anything.... I have worked and been a student in a lot of other industries. I think dive education could be a lot better than it currently is.
Having a padi sign on your door, or a padi instructors card in your pocket does not in any way tell me that you have a superior product or service.
Diving is supposed to be fun... Padi sells fun... Selling is selling though. Padi sells well.
I am not arguing in any way for the elimination of PADI.
Manuals and classes. I like my manuals technical and to explain in as much detail as possible what is happening, why it is happening, and what control I have over it. Padi wants to make it all as simple as possible to market it to everyone. That is fine. It isn't what I like. I now realize that padi classes and manuals are the minimum required for the subject at hand. The problem arises if you take something away or miss something from the minimum as an instructor you are now less than what is needed for minimum safety standards.
I also hate that the first two pages of any Padi manual are dedicated to selling me more classes, more resort vacations etc, as are the last pages. Along with marketing on taking more classes in the middle.... The minimum technical information with the maximum marketing material. The blatant marketing over and over and over again when I have paid for the book, paid for the class. It just gets old... I don't like being marketed to in a 37 page manual that I have just paid over $75.00 for.. When the material is a minimum and the marketing is a maximum, then are we being instructed or subjected to advertising?
"PADI does not sell gear"... No their members do. They market the hobby in it's entirety. Every padi dive store, and most instructors are associated with a store, sell gear. You can't dive without gear, padi markets the hobby, Padi is in the majority of stores that sells gear; marketing the fun of the hobby with photos of everyone wearing gear. They are marketing gear in general.
I even have stated that more divers are good for all of us.... Get more people diving, Padi is great at that... More people is a larger market is lower prices increased competition, and can even lead to increased quality providers entering the market. More people is in a lot of cases better for the environment too. People will fight a lot harder for the preservation of coral reefs when they have seen one first hand.
I am not jealous, or vindictive or anything.... I have worked and been a student in a lot of other industries. I think dive education could be a lot better than it currently is.
Having a padi sign on your door, or a padi instructors card in your pocket does not in any way tell me that you have a superior product or service.
Diving is supposed to be fun... Padi sells fun... Selling is selling though. Padi sells well.
DevonDiver
N/A
PADI has a modular course structure. It is fair and efficient for all divers, regardless of what their aims and incentives are.
You like technicality.... choose a 'route' through the training development programme that satisfies that goal. OW, AOW, Nitrox, Multi-level, etc - right through to Trimix. It's progressive development. It has to start easy...but it gets more complex.
You like photography in shallow water...choose that route. OW, PPB, Photo... then stop.
You like wrecks....do that course. You like deep wrecks...do that course plus the Deep training.
You like to float around a coral reef twice a year on vacation looking at the pretty fish. Do OW and nothing else.
Want to know what the pretty fish are? Fish ID.
Enjoyed watching Jaws? Interested in sharks? Shark Awareness..
It's about as fair as it gets. Pay for what you want. Get what you want. Not a cent is spent on anything you don't want.
You like technicality.... choose a 'route' through the training development programme that satisfies that goal. OW, AOW, Nitrox, Multi-level, etc - right through to Trimix. It's progressive development. It has to start easy...but it gets more complex.
You like photography in shallow water...choose that route. OW, PPB, Photo... then stop.
You like wrecks....do that course. You like deep wrecks...do that course plus the Deep training.
You like to float around a coral reef twice a year on vacation looking at the pretty fish. Do OW and nothing else.
Want to know what the pretty fish are? Fish ID.
Enjoyed watching Jaws? Interested in sharks? Shark Awareness..
It's about as fair as it gets. Pay for what you want. Get what you want. Not a cent is spent on anything you don't want.
tyesai
Contributor
Britians goverment is the definition of micro managing nanny state, ours is closing in. But I digress from that point and will say nothing further on the matter other than I don't care, I'm not British, I never intend to " Holiday " in Britain so whatever they do is fine by me and none of my buisness.
The Kraken
He Who Glows in the Dark Waters (ADVISOR)
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Scuba Instructor
Divemaster
I don't think this is about a particular agency so much as it is about individual dive shop marketing/sales models.
It would be good to have some corroboration of Jim's observations; at least that would let us know that is more commonly known that perhaps the experience of but one individual.
Be the claims true or false, I stand by my statement that a reasonable and prudent dive professional should give serious consideration to such incidents.
the K
It would be good to have some corroboration of Jim's observations; at least that would let us know that is more commonly known that perhaps the experience of but one individual.
Be the claims true or false, I stand by my statement that a reasonable and prudent dive professional should give serious consideration to such incidents.
the K
Jim,
Just out of curiosity... What did you tell the student who initially called you?
K
Just out of curiosity... What did you tell the student who initially called you?
K
Mr Carcharodon
Contributor
Jim as far as I can tell people are free to join together to teach each other sports. Doing that as part of a club is certainly one way and has some advantages over commercial instruction. Clubs at least potentially can offer more instruction and more one-on-one instruction than will be offered by most commercial classes. Is it safe? Well honestly I do not see novices swimming around in a pool as terribly dangerous. It is certainly not risk free, what in life is? The liability release form signed at the start of every scuba class, including yours I’m sure, is testimony that it is not risk free. But if the club is more dangerous than commercial instruction that case has not been made in your posts. Is the instruction offered by the club of good quality? I have no idea, and given that all you have is second hand information I suspect you do not either. At the very least the students are getting a step up on the academic and skills sections of their training.
The biggest issue you seem to have is that the club is not following the system your agency has set up. But they are under no obligation to do so. You may be disturbed that there are people are out there teaching who did not spend a lot of time, and a lot of money, just like you did. But disturbing as it may be they do not have to. The requirements of your agency are not mandatory for everyone else. The student was just seeking a credential from you. You can test and evaluate and grant a credential, or not, or remediate as you see fit. And if the students do not like your approach they can look elsewhere.
The biggest issue you seem to have is that the club is not following the system your agency has set up. But they are under no obligation to do so. You may be disturbed that there are people are out there teaching who did not spend a lot of time, and a lot of money, just like you did. But disturbing as it may be they do not have to. The requirements of your agency are not mandatory for everyone else. The student was just seeking a credential from you. You can test and evaluate and grant a credential, or not, or remediate as you see fit. And if the students do not like your approach they can look elsewhere.
aikiguy
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"It basically boils down to "wouldn't it be great if scuba diving was free". You don't get anything for nothing in this world. Reality."
That is not what I am saying....
In my experience diver education and training is a completely unregulated industry. The customer is at least as likely to receive training below the minimum reasonable standards as above it. There is no method for the customer to distinguish between a good and a bad teacher, a good class and a diver mill. What system other than "buyer beware" exists to assist a customer in selecting a qualified instructor? If a beginner enters the market without data, how can they select a good instructor?
I have met an alarming number of divers right out of their classes that cannot preform basic skills that are necessary to their having FUN and being safe. An occasional diver here or there would indicate that the issue is with the individual, but the number I have had the opportunity to dive with seems to indicate a larger issue related to either the instruction methodology or the instructors.
In other words the government grants a monopoly to a select section of foxes that are guarding the hen house. Surprising that the quality and the safety statistics don't change
The only thing that changes is that all instructors are now required to pay the license generating agency. Someone makes more money and nothing changed.
Again the problems are not solved. Just a monopoly handed out to the lobbyist with the most money.
The issues with quality are not going to be simple fixes. There are a number of instructors out there now that simply have no skills to teach. They have a certificate to do so from an agency that made money from them to issue it... The customer has no good method of differentiating between the available sellers in the market place. Holding a PADI certificate to teach does not mean that you are a good instructor, or that you are turning out students that are capable of diving on their own.
Yes all human organizations have issues, the club that I belong to is great, but it has club issues, and a few members that are wankers... However it is a good club, and we have learned from being part of it, and have some new great dive partners. The club does offer a rescue diver class, it interested us on the first night. However talking to other members of the club, on the first that first night several members told us not to take it if Member X was teaching it.
So cost of class, agency issuing certificate, affiliation with a LDS, or claims of the instructor are out... What source of information remains for the customer to select a good instructor?
Guy
That is not what I am saying....
In my experience diver education and training is a completely unregulated industry. The customer is at least as likely to receive training below the minimum reasonable standards as above it. There is no method for the customer to distinguish between a good and a bad teacher, a good class and a diver mill. What system other than "buyer beware" exists to assist a customer in selecting a qualified instructor? If a beginner enters the market without data, how can they select a good instructor?
I have met an alarming number of divers right out of their classes that cannot preform basic skills that are necessary to their having FUN and being safe. An occasional diver here or there would indicate that the issue is with the individual, but the number I have had the opportunity to dive with seems to indicate a larger issue related to either the instruction methodology or the instructors.
In other words the government grants a monopoly to a select section of foxes that are guarding the hen house. Surprising that the quality and the safety statistics don't change
The only thing that changes is that all instructors are now required to pay the license generating agency. Someone makes more money and nothing changed.Again the problems are not solved. Just a monopoly handed out to the lobbyist with the most money.
The issues with quality are not going to be simple fixes. There are a number of instructors out there now that simply have no skills to teach. They have a certificate to do so from an agency that made money from them to issue it... The customer has no good method of differentiating between the available sellers in the market place. Holding a PADI certificate to teach does not mean that you are a good instructor, or that you are turning out students that are capable of diving on their own.
Yes all human organizations have issues, the club that I belong to is great, but it has club issues, and a few members that are wankers... However it is a good club, and we have learned from being part of it, and have some new great dive partners. The club does offer a rescue diver class, it interested us on the first night. However talking to other members of the club, on the first that first night several members told us not to take it if Member X was teaching it.
So cost of class, agency issuing certificate, affiliation with a LDS, or claims of the instructor are out... What source of information remains for the customer to select a good instructor?
Guy
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Good point. A seasoned professional clarinetist will almost always provide better private student instruction than a certified school Band Teacher (I am both). Of course, you can't die playing clarinet (USUALLY!!!). As I said--buyer beware.
OP
I told him what my class involved, the length, the materials reqired, the knowledge and skills covered, and the total costs. I emailed him back after about two weeks and he said he had found someone else that was more convenient for him. I then forgot all about it until the phone call.
Just as a point of info I made the calls today. PADI is looking into it (they confirmed none of the people are PADI pros and should not be implying they are) and the school said that the club had the insurance they (the district) require to use the pool. All it covers is use. If they are using it for instruction (which is not part of the use agreement) it is on them was what I was told.
OK. As far as I'm concerned I did what my conscience required of me. It is in the hands of others now. My other concern was that if something had happened and there was action taken I did not want to have to say I did know about this but said nothing. Maybe I could not be held for anything but I still would have had to pay an attorney to make sure.
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