Most disturbing phone call I've gotten in a long time

[peterbj7]

Britians goverment is the definition of micro managing nanny state, ours is closing in. But I digress from that point and will say nothing further on the matter other than I don't care, I'm not British, I never intend to " Holiday " in Britain so whatever they do is fine by me and none of my buisness.

So in fact you have no direct knowledge of Britain or how it functions? And your judgement is based on some sort of hearsay? There are certainly things wrong with the way it is these days, mostly due to our crazy and undemocratic membership of the EU (you'd know a bit about that, assuming you are from Spain) and the rest being down to official apologists for Islam, but fundamentally it is a pretty free society.

In the context of regulation of recreational diving, the HSE only stepped in when it became apparent from a poor safety record that the industry was incapable of regulating itself. rather as is becoming clear in the USA, in fact.

 

[Kingpatzer]

But are there? Most of the criticisms I have seen can be classified as either petty, vindictive or simple jealousy. Too many try to promote themselves at the expense of others just like current American Politics. I am not sure that these people even see it! YMMV.

I'm a PADI instructor, and I would say there are plenty of legitimate criticisms that can be levied at PADI.

I do not believe that any of them, or even all of them together, make PADI a poor agency. No agency is above criticism, after all. I would say I think we're saying the same thing given your later post.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

In the context of regulation of recreational diving, the HSE only stepped in when it became apparent from a poor safety record that the industry was incapable of regulating itself. rather as is becoming clear in the USA, in fact.

Can you explain how this works ... and who's affected? Because my understanding was that HSE regulations only applied to commercial divers ... whether on scuba or otherwise ... and that the HSE lets recreational training agencies regulate themselves ... pretty much as they do elsewhere in the world.

If that's not right, can you please explain, or point to some references where HSE "stepped in when it became apparent from a poor safety record that the industry was incapable of regulating itself" ... because everything I've been able to find on this topic to date doesn't indicate that to be the case at all.

Based on your comments, you seem to have an axe to grind with scuba instruction in the USA ... why is that?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[cloudflint]

The HSE regulations only apply if a diver is "at work". This would normally be interpreted as diving for personal gain. These regulations also apply to self employed divers so if I accepted money from someone for, for instance, inspecting a mooring I would count as a self employed diver and be subject to the HSE regulations. An instructor who is paid to instruct would also come under this.

The actual dive organisations police themselves. so long as nobody is being paid to dive they can do what they like. All the instructors who taught me for instance are members of the Scottish sub-aqua club and do not receive any money or other rewards from instructing (apart from the smiles on the trainees faces of course) and as such do not come under the HSE diving at work regulations. They follow the rules of ScotSAC since if they did not their insurance would be invalidated but there is no legal requirement for them to follow the rules.

For more information you can read the HSE Recreational diving projects Diving at Work Regulations 1997 Approved Code of Practice. which is available here as a free pdf. If you read paragraph six you can see it states:

"The Code covers both the instruction and guiding of people diving for
recreational purposes where at least one person taking part is at work, for example
as an instructor. It also covers recreational journalists undertaking commissions
and producing articles, including stills photography, for the recreational diving press
only. It does not cover recreational diving activities, including instruction or guiding of
recreational divers, where no one is at work."

If nobody is being paid nobody is at work and the HSE regulations do not apply If you are being paid to instruct or guide on the outher hand you DO have to follow them.

 

[peterbj7]

BSAC and its Scottish arm are perhaps the only organisations in Britain that can operate outside the purview of the HSE. In every other case, and quite often with BSAC, someone is being paid to do something related to the diving, and that brings it into scope for the HSE.

The issue in any case is not whether money or equivalent changes hands, but whether there is a professional relationship in existence. If there is the HSE takes an interest. Even if I teach someone to dive for free in Britain I am still bound by whatever the HSE says. A very similar situation applies here in Belize, where you are deemed to be working if a professional relationship exists, regardless of whether any payment changes hands.

Any instructor and I suppose dive master who operates in Britain in a professional relationship requires an annual HSE medical. It is not the same as the commercial diving medical, as someone incorrectly said, but it is still pretty demanding and a lot of people fail it. They test heart rate, breathing rate, recovery from exercise, blood sugar, muscular strength, skeletal problems, and lots of other things. My last HSE medical in the UK took 1 1/2 hours of constant activity.

The incident I referred to in an earlier post was a death that occurred at Stoney Cove, a major inland training facility, during a PADI AOW course in (if I remember correctly) the late '90's. I won't go into the details of the incident, but the aftermath went as I have described. Ever since then the HSE have been in evidence whenever I've gone to Stoney Cove or any of several other flooded quarries, and they were on the dock on my last dive trip to the English south coast. I haven't so far heard of them entering the water. One dive business that was running an inland course was caught out when the HSE rep asked to see the written risk assessment that has to be drawn up. In that particular case it was a fairly trivial exercise as the centre had all sorts of rescue facilities, including an on-site chamber, and they hadn't written out the risk assessment. The training wasn't interrupted and the students/customers may well never have known there was an issue, but the shop was prosecuted and fined GBP10k. I only know because I know the shop's owners - the HSE didn't publicise it and the shop was hardly going to post it on their website.

I have no problem with scuba instruction in the USA as such - I have instructor ratings with four American bodies - but like many people I do feel recreational diving instruction standards have sunk too low. Pretty well all the major recreational scuba training bodies are American, so..... In fact, I also have concerns over standards at BSAC, the British body for which I am also an instructor. The whole thing has become too easy. As there don't seem to be many accidents perhaps I've missed the point. I do know that by myself I'm not going to change anything. But PADI and other bodies do have teaching standards which they claim to enforce, but in my observation there is widespread neglect of this. Whether the reason is purely commercial as some have claimed, whether it's a question of available resources, whether it's a question of striking a balance and not alienating those countries where much PADI business is generated, or whether it's simply that there is seldom sufficient hard evidence to nail a conviction without fear of reprisals through the courts - the US is unbelievably litigious - I don't know. All I know is that it isn't working.

 

[tyesai]

So in fact you have no direct knowledge of Britain or how it functions? And your judgement is based on some sort of hearsay? There are certainly things wrong with the way it is these days, mostly due to our crazy and undemocratic membership of the EU (you'd know a bit about that, assuming you are from Spain) and the rest being down to official apologists for Islam, but fundamentally it is a pretty free society.

In the context of regulation of recreational diving, the HSE only stepped in when it became apparent from a poor safety record that the industry was incapable of regulating itself. rather as is becoming clear in the USA, in fact.

I'm American, I'm only in Spain a few years, just wanted to clear that up. Cheers!

 

[cloudflint]

Aye if you can be considered to be at work you would have to follow the HSE regulations. Ive always found that the whole thing of whether HSE regulations apply to any particular dive tend to be somewhat of a grey area.

Ive never heard of any of the dive organisations falling foul of the HSE provided there wasn't a professionally relationship as you say. Ive heard many stories of instructors teaching students for money then the HSE swoops in and the * hits the fan. SSAC isnt associated with BSAC in any way shape or form (We where actually around a couple of years before them I believe ) and we have never had any trouble as far as I know. I can see how BSAC would come under the HSE alot more since they seem to have gone the way of PADI a bit and started charging for qualifications and such.

There was actually a rule brought in in SSAC saying that a risk assessment needs to be filled out before every dive just recently. This is due to a fatal accident that happened a while ago. It isn't something that the HSE forced upon us but rather is something that the SSAC diving council decided to bring in themselves to try to improve standards.

 

[peterbj7]

Good for the SSAC!

 

[The Chairman]

FWIW, Jim shared the website with me, and I don't see that much out of place with it. It appears to be a pretty normal club website and for the most part it seems to be divers mentoring divers. There is a newsletter where it's mentioned that they will "set up" a DSD, but it does not go into details about who is conducting it.

I certainly don't see a problem with divers mentoring other divers, and in fact: there's a lot of that happening right here on ScubaBoard. I obviously was not there when Jim discussed details over the phone, and again: I hope this is essentially one great big misunderstanding.

FWIW #2: I have asked for clarification from the Club webmaster. I have found that it's always best to go directly to the source and ask questions directly. Hopefully, they will respond.

 

[DevonDiver]

I can see how BSAC would come under the HSE alot more since they seem to have gone the way of PADI a bit and started charging for qualifications and such.

It doesn't matter if the club charges for the course - as long as the instructor doesn't recieve payment for teaching it.

As soon as the instructor recieves payment (including 'payment in kind'... free dives, free courses, free beer etc) then he is considered to be acting in a professional capacity.

The club may charge a nominal fee for training courses to cover expenses and/or raise money for the club. This does not effect the status of the instructor, who remains a 'volunteer'.

There was actually a rule brought in in SSAC saying that a risk assessment needs to be filled out before every dive just recently. This is due to a fatal accident that happened a while ago. It isn't something that the HSE forced upon us but rather is something that the SSAC diving council decided to bring in themselves to try to improve standards.

I think this is true for all the diving organisations...and has been around for a while.

When I did my DMT course at Stoney Cove years ago, I was even required to produce a map, for every dive, that illustrated the site and the proposed dive, along with a risk assessment. The map would show the route, along with locations where the divers would practice skills etc. After the dive, I had to annotate and explain any deviations from the dive plan and note any other issues or observations.

On the reverse side of this map, would be the dive manifest - the list of divers, the instructors and assistants, air in, air out, max depth etc. Below that was a pre-prepared form to be completed as a risk assessment.

These records (A4 double-sided) were then stored, along with the course paperwork, to satisfy legal requirements from the HSE.

I could probably go back to Stoney...dig out those records and remind myself of the precise details of every dive I did there. It was a very good system....

Otherwise, as an instructor in the UK, I personally kept very simular records in my personal dive log. It was a good 'best practice' operating procedure...especially if you ever faced a liability suit. Contemporaneous and precise records carry a lot of legal weight should an issue or claim ever arise in the future.