Muck Stick?

[Allison Finch]

Zippsy,

You figured it out, I was hiding from you.

Too bad you came out from under your rock

I add things when I think I have something to say that hasn't already been said, unlike some of the people here. I have a life outside of Scubaboard.

hasn't already been said? You need to come here more than you do, obviously.

I stumbled on this thread while looking at information on solo diving certification. I want this to get far away from 90% of the photographers that continually rough up the reefs.

You sound like just the kind of person who drove me to solo dive. The usual "know it all" type. Photographers don't ALL rough up the reefs, my friend. No more than all beginner divers are. Only the ones who lose track of what they are doing or simply don't care. I happen to keep track and I do care. Do I see fellow photogs do poor diving techniques to get that last shot? Yes. And they peeve me, too.

looked into taking pictures while scuba diving after watching somebody at Cocoview do it well.

I asked this person for some advice and he told me that if you get into this "you will have to give up 25% of shots/pictures because you will mess up the reefs if you can't say no". I bet most of the photographers don't give up 1% of their potential shots/pictures.

I give up more shots than I take, trust me.

Bottom line stay off the reef and that includes your "idiot poles" and we will not have a problem.

I am at 3 now!!!!

Uh, the whole idea of the "idiot pole" IS to stay off the reef....or better yet to stay put in ripping currents. Far less damaging than a reef hook. But then, in the limited diving you have likely done, you may not understand that.

Sorry to be so rough on you, but you seem to be an awfully judgemental person, so I thought to give you a taste of your own medicine.

 

[chris kippax]

I can see both sides of the argument here, It is great to nail the shot. Super macro is no doubt a hard task and provies us with views our eyes can not see at times so to do that using a tool/stick without damaging the marine ecosystem, then there in no issue at all!! What alot of you dont understand is that dead looking bit of coral or barren sand is in turn its own ecosystem which all plays a part in the bigger picture, The dead looking coral may be covered in a form of algae that is important to other creatures or plant in that area and who says you touching it with your man made pole wont damage it? That barren sand you drive your stick in may have crustaceans or a goby lair under it. So are you educated enough to tell what is under where you pole is placed. Are you willing to damage something for your own personal gain/fulfilment. You may be damaging things you dont even know exist. The potential for misuse and damage is definately there and everyone should do there bit in policing it. We should police all detrimental activities to our beloved underwater world. Being able to put all your weight on a small surface area could possible cause more damage to that small area that a larger area caused by a diver laying on the bottom.Who Knows. I am undecided if these sticks deserve a place or is it that some people whom misuse these dont deserve to dive??

 

[Magrone]

[/QUOTE] What alot of you dont understand is that dead looking bit of coral or barren sand is in turn its own ecosystem which all plays a part in the bigger picture, The dead looking coral may be covered in a form of algae that is important to other creatures or plant in that area and who says you touching it with your man made pole wont damage it? That barren sand you drive your stick in may have crustaceans or a goby lair under it. So are you educated enough to tell what is under where you pole is placed. Are you willing to damage something for your own personal gain/fulfilment. You may be damaging things you dont even know exist.

I see your point Chris, but then, this kind of goes back to the "stepping on ants" comment. Entering any environment potentially disrupts an ecosystem... Finning in the water column can potentially kill organisms as well... I mean if you are going to take it that far... why dive at all?

I don't think one person on this thread would disagree that preserving the fragile marine environment is paramount. And as responsible divers we should take care that our actions are not accelerating the rate of our diminishing reefs. But at what point does the careful conservative mindset become a bit of an obsessive delusion? I mean even if you accidentally stabbed a goby lair, it doesn't take decades to regenerate like broken hard corals.

As others have said, the idea of a muck stick in the responsible diver's hand is to cause LESS harm. If used properly it has its place.

 

[ElGaucho]

I see a lot of people professing care for the environment in writing in this forum. I see a whole different story when I'm diving. 98 percent of photographers touch disrupt and don't respect. Sorry that is the sad reality

---------- Post added January 12th, 2013 at 01:09 PM ----------

Also disrupting or not there are a HUGE majority of people lugging cameras uw that don't have basic diving skills in terms of uw control of themselves. Unfortunate and sadly true fact.

 

[Allison Finch]

I can see both sides of the argument here, It is great to nail the shot. Super macro is no doubt a hard task and provies us with views our eyes can not see at times so to do that using a tool/stick without damaging the marine ecosystem, then there in no issue at all!! What alot of you dont understand is that dead looking bit of coral or barren sand is in turn its own ecosystem which all plays a part in the bigger picture, The dead looking coral may be covered in a form of algae that is important to other creatures or plant in that area and who says you touching it with your man made pole wont damage it?

I will only speak for myself, and all of the other divers/photogs I have seen use a sand spike. If you read my earlier post, you will see how I say it often takes me quite a while using scrutiny to find an appropriate place to place the TINY tip. I don't just put it on any ole bare piece of coral.

That barren sand you drive your stick in may have crustaceans or a goby lair under it.

Again, referring to my earlier post and my long time practice, I NEVER "drive" the point roughly into the sand. I push it gently in. I have never pulled a spike out of the sand with a goby or shrimp skewered on the end. NOR have I seen anyone else do it. I don't use it in eel gardens, nor does anyone else I know do it. You are tar a feathering everyone with a sand spike in their hand with the same tar.

So are you educated enough to tell what is under where you pole is placed. Are you willing to damage something for your own personal gain/fulfilment. You may be damaging things you dont even know exist. The potential for misuse and damage is definately there and everyone should do there bit in policing it. We should police all detrimental activities to our beloved underwater world. Being able to put all your weight on a small surface area could possible cause more damage to that small area that a larger area caused by a diver laying on the bottom.Who Knows. I am undecided if these sticks deserve a place or is it that some people whom misuse these dont deserve to dive??

Our very presence under water is damaging. There is no way to avoid that. The proper use of a sand spike can save living structure FAR more than it will damage it. Notice I said proper use? When I see new divers right out of the classroom flailing and bashing the reef that I love to almost obsession, I wish every one of them had a spike to help them, along with training in its proper use. Even very experienced divers can be horrible reef bashers, IME.

Dive guides do FAR more damage than any photog. I blame their drive to get tips from both divers and photogs for this. If I see a dive guide mangle the reef to get a crinoid shrimp out of its protection, I take them aside and tell them if I see them do that again, I will not only NOT tip him, I will complain to the home office about their behavior. That, at least, stops their behavior in my presence. If a guide treats critters with respect, I tip WELL to encourage that.

For Jwill to imply that photogs don't care burns me up. I use my photography to show new and old and prospective divers the beauty we have and WHY we want to preserve it. So, learn how to use a sand spike correctly, and go out there and teach the knuckleheads you know how it's done, please.

 

[Darnold9999]

Nothing to do with muck stick in particular, but I did a trip last year from Raja Ampat to Lembeh. I was appalled at the condition of the reefs outside of the protected area of RA. Inside the area reefs were either in very good condition or mostly recovered. Outside the area I don't recall a single reef structure that was in anything but awful condition. Coral structures at the top of all the reefs were rubble, at the side in some reefs it was still partially intact. Muck dives were good, but any of the reefs we stopped at were very disappointing. You could see what used to be there, but was now gone or mostly gone.

It is divers/photographers that is creating the protection IMHO. But for this tourism I bet that the reefs within the protected zone would be in just as poor a condition as the reefs outside the zone. Dynamite fishing does far more harm to the reef ecosystem than the point of a muck stick of even the most callous diver.

However I can also see some part of the pov of some in this thread. In that same trip I found myself surfacing more than once grinding my teeth in frustration as the VERY experienced group of divers trashed the reef. They simply didn't care and no amount of cajoling by the dive guides, discussions at dive briefings or even guides dragging divers off of the coral had any impact whatsoever. One diver even had kneepads to protect his wetsuit from the coral. I suspect it is this kind of photographer/diver that is generating most of the heat in this discussion. I was certainly pissed. One particular dive comes to mind - was first in the water at Lembeh on this dive and was amazed at the vis, you could see for easily 60 - 80 feet. Was getting some great shots. 15 minutes later the vis had closed down to less than 20 feet. Followed the silt cloud back to the same group of divers who had entered the water and found a mantis shrimp with eggs.

 

[Allison Finch]

I agree that it only takes one bad photographer for a person to decide ALL photographers are evil.

I was sitting on a patch of staghorn watching a stunning yellow seahorse. It was not in a good position for a shot, but it was moving around quite a bit. Yes, I could have pushed it around with my stick, but that is not my method. I used the stick to hold my position without the need to so much as flick a fin in this extremely fragile coral. I waited for almost 20 minutes hoping that the seahorse would make its way to a shootable position.

We had a Russian photog onboard, who had quite a problem bashing, so I always tried to steer clear of him. He noticed that I had been immobile for quite a while and figured I had something real special. So he came over to check it out. He saw the seahorse and his lust went out of control. He pushed in front of me and grabbed a handful of the staghorn that was in the way of the shot and broke it off, tossing it aside. I was so upset I swam off, so I wouldn't see what came next. I wasn't about to start an international incident underwater on a night dive. I complained to the DM, for whatever good that did.

So, the muck stick helped me save that staghorn while quietly watching a beautiful creature. The other diver, without benefit of a "killer stick" did more stupid damage than a stick could have done in a year....even in the wrong hands.

Rant over.....for now.

 

[jwillh9181]

Allison,

If you go back and read my posts I have always stated that not every photographer is bad or causes damage. I have seen some incredible divers/photographers that blow my mine with the pictures they take while never touching anything.

My experience has been that for every one of those type divers I will also encounter 20 others that touch things on a regular basis. Either I just have bad luck with the photographers I encounter or 90% of the photographers actually do touch things on a regular basis in order to get the shot. From day one I was told to never touch anything from all of the instructors/dm's but over the years it has changed only if you are carrying a camera Why?? And over the past year or so the use of the "idiot poles" has exploded giving every diver carrying one of these a licence to poke and prod the reefs.

When I do see a great photographer I will mention them in conversation with others photographers complimenting them on their skills while pointing out they are able to do this while never touching anything. Hopefully shaming them into improving their underwater photography skills.

Another thing I have observed is that most of the "bad apple" photographers are really great divers when then dive without cameras. Putting a camera in their hands really has a negative impact on their diving.

 

[Sorrows]

I just got back from Lembeh a week ago, and this was my first experience with a muck stick. I can see why they are banned in places like Bonaire--it gives the diver too much protection and they will end up using the muck stick in ways they would NEVER use their hands. I plead guilty to that charge myself--so I'm retiring my muck stick on future trips.

However, I don't see how you can manage without one in places like Lembeh. I'm not a new diver and I have decent buoyancy, but that black sand is so fine that it seemed like the merest movement would silt eveything up. Sometimes I would look behind me and feel dismayed--did I do that? I'm barely moving!

Allison, international incident be dammed, that Russian photographer needed to be schooled--perhaps he doesn't know any better? I don't know if you can rely on the DMs. While we were in the German channel of Palau (manta dive) I watched a Japanese woman literally lay down on the coral--her wetsuit was covered in slime from it; I went over and picked up her legs. She gave me such a startled look! Did it do any good? Who knows? But I do know the DMs are very reluctant to call any diver on this behavior--losing face and all that. And there are way too many photographers who can't handle their equipment and buoyancy and, as you say, are overcome with lust, losing all sense of reason and decorum, when they see a good subject.

I'm not a photographer myself--I have a point-and-shoot, but I've noticed how obsessive I would get when I take it with me. In my case, I would lose my dive companions. It's like I would forget everything else but getting the photo! I gave my camera back to my husband and told him to never give it back to me. And my photographs suck--imagine if you are actually good at it. Not that there is a photograph in existence which merits damaging the reef--and certainly not breaking off a strand of staghorn coral!

 

[gekodivebali]

After reading this thread I've made up my mind: i'll only use a toothpick from now on. Compact, lightweight, my homemade model includes a handle AND it's foolproof since no one can make noise by banging their tank with it. I am a little worried about the risks of impalled pygmies by careless photogs though. Sate kuda laut anyone?
No more seriously, just be careful with those guys. Like most things, muck sticks can be great tools in the right hands, or cause a lot of damage in the left hands (couldnt help it). It'd be great if manufacturers, instructors and Dm's out there could educate bad users.

---------- Post added February 15th, 2013 at 11:10 PM ----------

PADI Distinctive Specialty anyone?