Muscle memory does everyone automatically have it?

[Hawkwood]

Lynne, why do you want to deeply ingrain responses via muscle memory. Your example of the absent clutch demonstrates the potential for failure when that occurs.

We tend to look at the positives of MM but what about the negatives, like when you do something automatically because it's what you always do but, in that case, it's the wrong thing. Dave Shaw was used to letting go of his canlight when he needed two hands because it was usually draped around his neck, until it wasn't.

We have a "standard" VW Jetta and an "automatic" GMC Sierra. Typically not too much trouble switching back and forth when driving one or the other.

The "fun" comes when I have not been driving the Sierra for a long time and react instinctively (typically when you have to brake suddenly without warning)...the consequence of stamping the brake with your left foot while your right is still on the gas is startling to say the least. Obviously my instictive behaviour is calibrated to what I do most - drive the Jetta. It does not happen all the time, just enough to remind you that there is a consequence to rote behaviour.

 

[drbill]

I have memories of back when I actually had a lot of muscle! And, Lynne, I did the same thing. Bought my first car with automatic transmission after 50 years of driving stick and occasionally try to hit the clutch.

As for muscle memory and my diving, given that I flail around a lot and that my mind can barely remember what I went into the other room for, I'm not sure it has any effect for me.

 

[RJP]

If you've ever tied your shoes without looking at the laces you know what muscle memory is all about.

Muscle memory is about proprioception, which is your body's innate ability to understand where all the parts of your body are (relative to each other and their surroundings) and the amount of force needed, distance covered, and direction of movement of each body part necessary to conduct a task.

When a task is conducted often enough, you don't have to think about these things. There are actual receptors (proprioceptor - definition of proprioceptor by Medical dictionary) in your muscles, tendons, and joints that are responsible for this ability - such as being able to bring your forefinger to the tip of you nose with your eyes closed - so this ability is actually located "in the muscles" to a large extent. If not for the muscle memory of these proprioceptors you'd poke yourself in the eye or shove your finger in your mouth as often as you'd find the tip of your nose. While, of course, your forefinger has no cognitive abilities, in a certain sense the tip of your forefinger actually does "remember" where the tip of your nose is located. Without muscle memory you'd need to re-learn how to walk every time you got out a chair. In fact you'd have to relearn how to get out of the chair if your muscles didn't "remember" how to do so.

In diving we take advantage of lots of existing muscle memory, and can even create new ones. Your right thumb knows where your right collarbone is and your left thumb knows where your left hip is, which makes clipping a light off or checking your SPG very easy. And while your hand may not currently know where your right post or alternate reg are located, with enough repetition your hand will eventually "learn" and ultimately "remember" these locations. This is why gear standardization is important, and why many people dive the same configuration in all environments. My right thumb remembers where my backup light is... whether I'm diving steel doubles and trimix at 190ft touring the lower engine room of a wreck in NJ or in diving aluminum 80 looking at pretty fishies at 35ft on a Cayman reef.

There's also a difference between "muscle memory" and "force of habit."

It's the difference between being able to tie your shoe laces without looking (muscle memory) and depressing a clutch pedal that isn't there (force of habit.)

Yes, conducting the relatively complex sequence of motions necessary to depress the clutch pedal (where is it, how high do you lift your foot, how far do you depress the clutch, with how much force, etc) is driven by "muscle memory." However, the unconscious thought to actually invoke the motion, even absent the presence of a clutch, is force of habit. In other words "force of habit" explains WHY Lynn clipped off her req without even realizing she had done so.... but "muscle memory" explains HOW she was able to accomplish this.

 

[TSandM]

Yes, there is a downside to ingraining behavior, which is that when you change things, you have to bring the behavior up to conscious level and change it, which makes you slower and more awkward. This is true in ANYTHING. When I switch back and forth between my car, where you insert the key fob in a slot and then push a button to turn it on, and my husband's, where you have to put the key in and turn it, there are a few moments where I actually have to THINK about what I am doing, instead of letting the subroutine run while my conscious mind is doing something else. On the other hand, you CANNOT become truly facile with a procedure as long as you are managing it consciously. Although Brian Boitano may have been thinking about his edges and the placement of his hands in his spins and jumps, he wasn't thinking about how to ice skate, because that was "muscle memory". He was only adjusting the very tip of the iceberg, and the rest was proceeding on its own.

One of the reasons GUE is so big on standardization is that, when you standardize things, you can make full use of this ability to create deep grooves in memory, without the downside of awkwardness when things change. Folks who constantly change things are always having to process consciously, and can never achieve the same degree of instinctive performance that can be done when you can relegate matters to the subconscious brain.

 

[Hawkwood]

... In other words "force of habit" explains WHY Lynn clipped off her req without even realizing she had done so.... but "muscle memory" explains HOW she was able to accomplish this.

That's it in a nutshell.

 

[CavePete]

Interesting thread. Thank you RJP for the nice clarification. It is not very difficult to see how this process could be very useful in diving or any other "ordinary" activity. Combining a developed habit with the right "muscle" memory seems to be very effective way to "unload" our minds and thus give us the space and freedom to be more aware and attentive to whats happening around us.

 

[TMHeimer]

Funny one. I always drove a standard until I met my wife (she can drive standard but prefers automatic). My folks in NY at the time always drove standards. I'm in NY for summer driving their car. I return to Canada, jump in our car and try to shift by grabbing a coke bottle.

 

[Z Gear]

OK since I had time to read some of these posts now and weigh out their differences, I think I can deduce the following.

As far as muscle memory having NOTHING to do with the muscles, or not being a important component to the MM factor I believe is not adequate, because I believe this repetitive training has allowed the brain to coordinate this deeply ingrained motion and the muscles are mostly acting very quickly as a REFLEX type motion. This is means that the muscles do play an integral part in completing this type auto response or motion because of its reflex type memory.

In Karate or boxing (as well as many other activities) These aspects of muscle memory I believe are the core of these activities. They have to be as fast as reflex. The repetitive training one does in Karate to learn "FORMS" which are a series of defensive followed with a counter offensive moves are a prime example an ingrained reflex type motion which depends on the brain to determine when to initiate these quick reflex responses.
Boxing has the same reflex type or mm vital for its activity. The counter punches or slipping punches followed by a combination of punches comes out lighting quick and is more like a reflex type, but the brain is always recognizing and determining what to use and when to use depending on information it sees to trigger MM action.

This directly should address the concerns of those stating: Why should MM be beneficial what if something happens and you are using mm?

The brain I think is completely capable of having in grained task or repetitive training while at the same time is in control because the function of reading the surrounding is vital component and inherent of the brain it can determine what action to take at all times it is more of an automatic instinct in the brain and the MM is just one of many ingrained responses the brain can choose to activate at any given time and at any level. This would type switching is a natural activity of the brain and it adapts and copes with incoming changes constantly, it never stops learning how to be more effective or proficient at something and is always processing info on which action is best to take or in the case of mm to initiate.

Frank G
Z GEAR - Z Gear

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

If you've ever tied your shoes without looking at the laces you know what muscle memory is all about.

Muscle memory is about proprioception, which is your body's innate ability to understand where all the parts of your body are (relative to each other and their surroundings) and the amount of force needed, distance covered, and direction of movement of each body part necessary to conduct a task.

When a task is conducted often enough, you don't have to think about these things. There are actual receptors (proprioceptor - definition of proprioceptor by Medical dictionary) in your muscles, tendons, and joints that are responsible for this ability - such as being able to bring your forefinger to the tip of you nose with your eyes closed - so this ability is actually located "in the muscles" to a large extent. If not for the muscle memory of these proprioceptors you'd poke yourself in the eye or shove your finger in your mouth as often as you'd find the tip of your nose. While, of course, your forefinger has no cognitive abilities, in a certain sense the tip of your forefinger actually does "remember" where the tip of your nose is located. Without muscle memory you'd need to re-learn how to walk every time you got out a chair. In fact you'd have to relearn how to get out of the chair if your muscles didn't "remember" how to do so.

In diving we take advantage of lots of existing muscle memory, and can even create new ones. Your right thumb knows where your right collarbone is and your left thumb knows where your left hip is, which makes clipping a light off or checking your SPG very easy. And while your hand may not currently know where your right post or alternate reg are located, with enough repetition your hand will eventually "learn" and ultimately "remember" these locations. This is why gear standardization is important, and why many people dive the same configuration in all environments. My right thumb remembers where my backup light is... whether I'm diving steel doubles and trimix at 190ft touring the lower engine room of a wreck in NJ or in diving aluminum 80 looking at pretty fishies at 35ft on a Cayman reef.

There's also a difference between "muscle memory" and "force of habit."

It's the difference between being able to tie your shoe laces without looking (muscle memory) and depressing a clutch pedal that isn't there (force of habit.)

Yes, conducting the relatively complex sequence of motions necessary to depress the clutch pedal (where is it, how high do you lift your foot, how far do you depress the clutch, with how much force, etc) is driven by "muscle memory." However, the unconscious thought to actually invoke the motion, even absent the presence of a clutch, is force of habit. In other words "force of habit" explains WHY Lynn clipped off her req without even realizing she had done so.... but "muscle memory" explains HOW she was able to accomplish this.

Your brain is the master computer and control center for your body. There is no such thing as " muscle memory", it's physically and scientifically impossible.
Just ask anybody paralyzed and in a wheel chair with a brain or spinal injury, I don't see them relying on any muscle memory to stand up and go take a piss.
And "procioceptor", yes, read carefully "nerve endings responsible for movement"...from your brain.
Muscles can remember about as much as a rock = 0
All "muscle memory" is is a cool sounding buzz word, that's it...

 

[kr2y5]

I am not sure if that was indeed the intention, but some posts here seem to be implying that there is some sort of a sharp, discrete boundary between muscle memory and other types of learned behaviors. What makes you think that? I always thought that as we go through life, our brains learn a lot of patterns that lie on a smooth continuum... some higher-level, some lower-level, shallower vs. deeper, harder to change vs. more permanent... and that muscle memory is just one point on that continuum, just like any other habit. I don't think I really use my brain much while making coffee for breakfast, or driving to work along the same route I drove for the past few months. I don't go through a conscious decision-making process when I get annoyed at a guy who cuts in front of me on a crowded highway. Indeed, I'd think that mental muscle memory is just as common. Most people posting on ScubaBoard, myself included, are prone to making wrong assumptions and generalizations. We often read a single word or phrase, and in about half a second, a whole complex decision process unfolds inside our brains that starts from observation, glances through on-the-fly made assumptions, and culminates in a certain kind of emotional bias. As we go through life, we "execute" a countless number of patterns, without thinking much about it, and we are driven by all sorts of habits big and small. What makes muscle memory so distinct, and why should its presence be a surprise to us? Is it the case, for example, that it is somehow different at a physiological level?