My Confined Water Dive with BP/W experience

[DaK1]

Thanks for all your inputs!

Our class structure was set so that we did all the bookwork one day and all the confined water dives in another. We were very rushed and I do think the instructor could of done a lot better and be more detailed oriented instead of just getting it by and done. I didn't have any problems and was comfortable with performing any of the skills except for the ones I mentioned. I will definitely be asking for a proper weight check when doing the boat dive. I don't think I will be able to use a weight belt and will have to use my weight pockets I added to the harness because of the bcd on and off test at the surface. I would have to take off the weight belt before I can take off the bcd which seems to be more bothersome and more things to juggle around for this simple exercise unless anyone else knows a better way.

I will also be adding a 5/3 mm hooded vest and 3mm gloves to my exposure suit too in the ocean dive so definitely need a weight check. I am 230 pounds, 6' tall, and around 22% body fat (at least that's what my digital weight scale says) and I do work out at the gym on a regular basis.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

If you really know what you are doing with a bpw and are properly weighted you wear the belt under the crotch strap. You should be using enough weight on the belt that you are neutral at the surface or SLIGHTLY positive with a full breath. Dumping the rig should not put you in any danger of being so negative that you can't stay up.
Also look at what you just wrote- you said the class was rushed and the instructor could have done a better job. Why is this in any way acceptable? Answer- it's not. Under any definition in a good class you will not feel rushed or that the instructor could have done a better job, covered more, or explained things better. In a crap one one of those would be enough to define the class as poor. More than that, I hope you didn't pay much for it.

 

[boulderjohn]

I will join the chorus of others who say you should have done a weight check and you should demand one. Now, you did not mention the agency, but if it is one of the RSTC agencies (PADI, SDI, SSI, IDEA, PSAI), then the failure to do a proper weight check is a violation of standards. You are supposed to do it in the pool, and you are supposed to do it on every one of the OW dives you do. You may want to do your diplomatic best in this regard, but I urge you to follow up on that. Start by asking the instructor why no weight check was done. If the instructor works for a shop, as the shop manager/director of instruction/owner (or whatever) what their policy is in this regard. If you are not satisfied, contact the certifying agency.

Last summer I did the OW dives with a student who was much smaller than you. He was also in a 7mm suit, and he had worn that 7mm suit in the pool. He told me the instructor had done a weight check, and he knew he needed 22 pounds. I doubted it, and I talked him into doing the initial weight check with 18 pounds. He was resistant at first because he KNEW he needed 22 pounds. When we did the weight check, he sank like a stone. I eventually got him down to 10 pounds, and he was thrilled with how much easier it was to dive when properly weighted. I have no idea how his pool weight check got him to 22 pounds.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Just out of curiosity, you are not doing this class in the San Francisco area are you?

 

[DaK1]

I will mention this to the dive shop operator about this and the instructor. It is a PADI agency and I got it for a good discount. I will be diving in So Cal.

 

[rhwestfall]

DaK1,

I apologize for derailing this into a weighting issue. Interesting enough, if you need excess air in your wing to offset the excessive amount of weight, manipulating your kit (doff & don) will be made even harder. There may be other things you will need to do to get to your desired skill performance, but this is a really important component. I am glad you have taken this discussion to heart. I would like to hear from you as to how your skill progression is going once your weighting is worked out.

Regards

 

[dumpsterDiver]

This situation sounds pretty ridiculous. Can you imagine a freshman in college, "DEMANDING" after ONE DAY of class that his professor do this or that? This brand new student is supposed to get all fired up (based on what some internet experts) told him and directly confront his professional instructor and demand more/different instruction? We really should be able to step back and and acknowledge just how ridiculous this situation is.

Not that I don't completely agree that the instructor sounds incompetent, but a professional organization which is responsible for teaching people to function in life or death situations, should be doing better. Perhaps a better solution for the student is to DEMAND his money back (or refuse a credit card charge) and find another instructor who he has confidence in? If the professional does not or will not teach the class in the proper manner (after all his training) do we really think that the instructor is going to be receptive to being subject to DEMANDS from a student who has had one day in the pool and (read something on the internets)?

Sad really.

 

[Colliam7]

If I read your posts correctly, it seems that you are having problems in three areas: a) the total amount of weight you are wearing AND the distribution of that weight (between your scuba unit and your body), b) the fit of the scuba unit, and c) the structure, and general pace of the course.

Doing the entire bcd removal under water was difficult because all the weight was on the bcd and I had to really struggle and balance to stay in place on the ground. . . . At depth, when I started to take off my gear, i started to float back up which made it very difficult to completely take off the bcd and put back on since all my weight is on the BCD.

This part is both disconcerting, and not at all surprising. It is disconcerting because the instructor should have been alert to what was going on, and making suggestions regarding how to distribute the weight. But, it is not surprising, if ALL of your Confined Water training was completed in one day – and there were, presumably, other students in the course. If all of the weight (and there was apparently a ‘whompin gob' of it, as we say in the South) is in the scuba unit, and you take it off underwater, while wearing a thick (aka very positively buoyant) wetsuit, you will have some struggles – your body wants to float up, and away from the scuba unit which is firmly planted on the bottom, and perfectly happy to stay right where it is. Most divers find, over time, the best balance in distribution of their weight. In an Open Water class, the Instructor SHOULD assist the student in finding that proper balance.

Our class structure was set so that we did all the bookwork one day and all the confined water dives in another. We were very rushed and I do think the instructor could of done a lot better and be more detailed oriented instead of just getting it by and done.

I won’t pick on the instructor for the schedule, necessarily. Often, shops set up the schedule. I will assign responsibility to any instructor who willingly goes along with a schedule that they believe is not consistent with effective teaching and learning. I would not be comfortable teaching a private, 1 student Open Water course with one day of Confined Water training, much less a group class. Call me old-fashioned.

I had to do this twice because I coudn't get out of the harness and had to loosen it up first at the surface so that I can complete the test.

You apparently went into the course with the DSS BP/W already purchased. Who helped you adjust the fit of the unit? You describe a situation where the fit appears to be too snug. Why was it so snug? How did you set it up beforehand? Who helped you / advised you? I won’t hold an instructor accountable for the fit of a scuba unit that the student shows up with.

In three separate posts, Jim made comments that merit particular attention.

Standards call for students to be neutral in open water. That to me means properly weighted. The only way to do that is with proper checks.

You describe a course in which appropriate weight checks were not performed. We only have your assessment. But, if that is accurate, there was something seriously deficient in your Confined Water training.

Under any definition in a good class you will not feel rushed or that the instructor could have done a better job, covered more, or explained things better.

Not everyone learns at the same pace, or in the same style. This course may not have been a good fit for you. I, personally, would not be comfortable with a single day of Confined Water training, IF I wanted to actually learn the skills required in order to learn how to dive. And, finally:

This class sounds like an accident waiting to happen.

Perhaps, the third comment is the most telling. My impression arises from (only) your description, so I may be needlessly concerned. But, to have a student getting ready to go into the Open Water dives for a scuba course, with the issues you describe still unresolved, does not leave me with a warm, fuzzy feeling.

But, perhaps, there is, if not ‘light at the end of the tunnel’, a plausible explanation of why you got a course like you did:

I got it for a good discount

As Jim Carey said in Liar, Liar, ‘And, the truth shall set you free!’. In our area, we have a shop that runs discounted (Groupon and Living Social) Open Water Diver courses. They are generally a disaster. We have had ‘graduates’ of that course repeat the entire Open Water training with us, because they didn’t feel good about what they learned or, more accurately, what they didn’t learn. The agency is irrelevant. The duration, content, focus, and quality of the course is very relevant. Perhaps, you really do 'get what you pay for'.

 

[DaK1]

@Colliam7 and others

Thanks for taking the time to comment and share your thoughts with me. I like to think I researched pretty well with my bcd setup and even talked with Tobin from DSS over the phone to make sure I am buying the right equipment. I put together my bp/w and hogarthian by myself by reading and watching instructions and advice mostly from this forum and other parts of the internet. It is a learning process and now I know I should try and loosen up my harness a bit more and try that out. I almost just decided to use the jacket vest that the class was offering just for simplicity sake but I decided to go with my bp/w because that is what I will be using for the foreseeable future in all my dives. Since I read good things about the dive school (more like good things about the instructors that they hire) I decided to go with it. Unfortunately, as you can see, I got stuck with my instructor. Interestingly enough, the confined water dive instructor is different from my course work classes. The instructors for the course work were great instructors. I asked the dive shop to get a different instructor and told them my story, but my instructor told them that we did do a weight check (shockers!). So I will be getting a different instructor and hope it all works out. I will definitely stop with any of my dives if I don't feel comfortable or the instructor is another lemon. I was assured that I will be getting a proper weight check before any dive I do for the class. I will update this thread with my progress.

 

[boulderjohn]

PADI has a very specific method for dong the weight check in the OW class. The instructor is supposed to have students hold a normal breath, refrain from kicking, and dump all the air from the BCD. The ideal is to float at eye level. Did you do that? There is an instructional problem associated with working with properly weighted students in the pool, and your instructor may have substituted a different method because of that. I will describe it below.

There are two ways to have students learn skills in the pool. The traditional method is to have the class kneel down facing the instructor, who is also kneeling. That is how probably 99% of scuba instruction was done until recently. PADI is now advocating that students learn the skills while in a horizontal trim and neutrally buoyant. They still allow initial instruction on the knees, though, and I am sure the majority of instructors still do it the way they always did.

The new method was introduced in an article in the PADI professional journal a few years ago, and in preparation for it, pictures were taken of basic skill introduction in both positions for purpose of comparison. I was the model for the pictures. I had not done any skills on my knees for years when I posed for the pictures, and I was surprised at the difference weighting made. Even several pounds overweighted, I struggled to do the skills on the knees. I was too floaty. I kept rising to the surface every time I moved. I had to use twice as much weight to do the skills on the knees as I used when doing the skills horizontal and buoyant.

Instructors who teach on the knees often think that the way to tell if a student is properly weighted for instruction is to see if they can be firmly planted on the bottom. You do that by adding weight to them in the first session if you see them having trouble staying on their knees. After a while, I suppose instructors who teach this way will figure out that if you just give everybody gobs of weight at the beginning, they can all kneel on the bottom beautifully, and you save a lot of time.

The old PADI standards pretty much allowed that, except for the weight check part. The standards called for only a minimal amount of actual swimming. Students could do almost the entire class kneeling down. That is no longer true. The newer standards call for students to do a lot of neutrally buoyant swimming in the pool sessions. The new standards call for the students to learn about proper trim.

How would you describe that pool session? Were you on your knees most of the time? Did you get in a lot of neutrally buoyant swimming?