My Impression of the Back Inflate vs. Jacket Style vs. BP/Wings Debate

[metridium]

Interesting opinions, SeaJay. Hope you don't mind if I add a few of my own...

SeaJay once bubbled...
And the jacket style had a pull dump. I've heard things about how bad pull dumps are because of the fact that they give another point of possible failure, but in all of the instructors and divemasters that I've asked, not one has yet seen a pull dump pull out of the jacket

That's the same thing I was told about the swivel on my first stage reg. Didn't stop it from blowing, though. Nor did it stop a pull dump separation which happened to a fellow diver on an overnight trip a few years ago.

SeaJay once bubbled...
There was also supposed to be a "streamlining" effect from the back inflate. I found this to not be correct. Instead, I found that the close-fitting jacket style BC stayed more streamlined than the floaty and "all over the place" wings on the back inflate.

180 degrees different from my experiences with jacket style BCs and my BPs. Of course, I'm not familiar with non-BP/W back inflation units.

SeaJay once bubbled...
So in short, I found the back inflate BC's to be opinionated and mildly irritating, and not allowing me to place my body where I wanted.

Again, I've had the diametrically opposed experience.

SeaJay once bubbled...
I was surprised that I much preferred the jacket style BC's to the back inflates. I'd always had the impression that back inflates were more "technical" whereas the jacket style BC's were more "sport." But I'm telling you now, I would much more trust a jacket style BC in open water than a back inflate.

And I wouldn't. As I've stated elsewhere, I wouldn't use a jacket-style BC if someone gave it to me. For that matter, I wouldn't give or sell it to a friend.

Just MHO, of course.

SeaJay once bubbled...
The BP/Wings setup might work well with a 7 mil suit or dry suit on, but with my tropical and subtropical diving, it seemed a bit hard.

Odd, I've never had a problem with either of mine while wearing a 3mm. Both were perfectly comfortable...and, equally important, very stable.

OTOH, I recall very vividly swimming around inside the jacket BCs I've had the misfortune to use.

SeaJay once bubbled...
I can see, however, how, if you loaded up with deco bottles, twin tanks, and a bunch of gear you'd really enjoy the extra stability that a BP/Wings setup gave you.

Works great with single tanks and no gear, IME.

SeaJay once bubbled...
Crotch straps: Who the heck invented this torture device? I hated it.

Obviously, it was not adjusted correctly. When it is, you simply won't notice the presence of the strap unless you go looking for it.

SeaJay once bubbled...
My point? Don't let the DIR ****s tell you that "there's nothing better than a BP/Wings setup."

Aha. Well, there goes the pretense of objectivity right out the window.

 

[jasondbaker]

I appreciate the effort you put into the review. But I see it as a review written by someone with only 17 dives. That doesn't make it irrelevant -- just more relevant to a new diver than a seasoned veteran. I've often heard that new divers find vest-style BCD's more comfortable to dive. Your analysis just strengthens that belief. As your experience grows your views will/may change.

 

[SeaJay]

I appreciate the effort you put into the review. But I see it as a review written by someone with only 17 dives. That doesn't make it irrelevant -- just more relevant to a new diver than a seasoned veteran. I've often heard that new divers find vest-style BCD's more comfortable to dive. Your analysis just strengthens that belief. As your experience grows your views will/may change.

Ah, totally true. You know, I like the idea of buying the RIGHT gear the first time, so I put a priority on checking out this gear before spending all of that money. I was sure that I'd find the BP/Wings setup far superior based on what I've read here on the board. I was expecting that, and frankly, I was looking forward to throwing away all of the catalogs and gear reviews pertaining to BC's that I have been looking at lately. Unfortunately, it took me five dives (four over the weekend then one pool dive) to come 360 degrees back to what I knew and had used for my OW certification... The lowly jacket style BC. And frankly, the Scubapro that I like so much here is MORE money than a BP/Wings setup, so I was disappointed about that too. I simply WANTED to like the BP/Wings setup more, and was prepared for that.

Didn't happen that way, though. None of the divers that I've dived with, including several instructors and dive shop owners, seem surprised. They tell me that most people like the standard jacket style BC's, and that it's rare to find someone who prefers the back inflate, and rarer still to find someone who prefers a BP/Wings setup. although it's common in cavers who dive multiple bottles.

Agreed, I only have 17 dives. Well, 17 while certified, anyway. My opinions may change. But I sure as heck wonder, then, why I'd feel the way I do now. Maybe like it's been said before, it depends greatly on the type of diving you're doing.

Interesting opinions, SeaJay. Hope you don't mind if I add a few of my own...

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SeaJay once bubbled...
There was also supposed to be a "streamlining" effect from the back inflate. I found this to not be correct. Instead, I found that the close-fitting jacket style BC stayed more streamlined than the floaty and "all over the place" wings on the back inflate.
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180 degrees different from my experiences with jacket style BCs and my BPs. Of course, I'm not familiar with non-BP/W back inflation units.

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SeaJay once bubbled...
So in short, I found the back inflate BC's to be opinionated and mildly irritating, and not allowing me to place my body where I wanted.
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Again, I've had the diametrically opposed experience.

Weird. It's not that I don't believe you... And I know what my experience was. My question is, "Why did you and I have such different results?"

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SeaJay once bubbled...
I was surprised that I much preferred the jacket style BC's to the back inflates. I'd always had the impression that back inflates were more "technical" whereas the jacket style BC's were more "sport." But I'm telling you now, I would much more trust a jacket style BC in open water than a back inflate.
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And I wouldn't. As I've stated elsewhere, I wouldn't use a jacket-style BC if someone gave it to me. For that matter, I wouldn't give or sell it to a friend.

Just MHO, of course.

Hmmmm. Well, my friend, if you've got a spare Scubapro Classic in a size large sitting around, I'd be thrilled to take it off your hands for you. Heck, I'd even pay you for it.

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SeaJay once bubbled...
The BP/Wings setup might work well with a 7 mil suit or dry suit on, but with my tropical and subtropical diving, it seemed a bit hard.
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Odd, I've never had a problem with either of mine while wearing a 3mm. Both were perfectly comfortable...and, equally important, very stable.

OTOH, I recall very vividly swimming around inside the jacket BCs I've had the misfortune to use.

Weird. Have you seen the cover of this month's Scuba Diving magazine? There's a girl on the front cover ascending from a cave wearing a BP/Wings setup in a bikini. So I can see where you are coming from... Obviously, there are others who also have that same point of view.

And I have also had a poorly fitting jacket style BC on where the tank felt less than attached, and I felt like I was "swimming" in my BC at the surface. But in a good fitting BC I did not have those problems at all. In fact, like I said before, things seemed quite stable even without a crotch strap. All of the units that I tried on in the pool that day all had hard parts in them for stability, by the way. Those BC's were actually backplates covered in material with a bladder that went all the way around my body. To have them "float around" would have been pretty weird, and indicative only of a really poor fit.

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SeaJay once bubbled...
I can see, however, how, if you loaded up with deco bottles, twin tanks, and a bunch of gear you'd really enjoy the extra stability that a BP/Wings setup gave you.
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Works great with single tanks and no gear, IME.

Man... Why then was your experience so different from mine? I truly want to understand why someone would prefer the BP/Wing setup... I feel like I'm missing something really good.

On the other hand, I never got the Harley thing either. Twice as expensive, twice as less likely to run, and half the horsepower. Oh yeah... You're going to have to wait for two years to have yours built. Looking terrible is cool. Fat is in, both on men and women. Who needs safety gear? Abusing your eyes and ears with wind and loud motor is cool. (If this concept is foreign to you, then hang your head out of your open car window at 60 mph and see how enjoyable it is... Then understand why I LIKE wearing a helmet.) And then, once or twice a year, you get to get together with 25,000 other people and claim your individuality.

But hey, some people love them. Live by them. Get religious (or "holistic") about them. I really want to understand, because I feel I'm missing something really cool. But try as I might, I didn't get why it would be "cool" to have your neighbors hate the fact that the 60 hp, oil-leaking pig in your front yard started up late one night and woke up their screaming baby.

Likewise, I just don't get the BP/Wings setup.

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SeaJay once bubbled...
Crotch straps: Who the heck invented this torture device? I hated it.
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Obviously, it was not adjusted correctly. When it is, you simply won't notice the presence of the strap unless you go looking for it.

I admit freely to being a newbie... So I'm open to the fact that I missed something here, but how in the world could someone make a 2" strap that goes right across your balls and then up your butt crack comfortable? I wasn't able to make it so. I mean, we aren't even talking about a rappeling harness or a parachute harness here, with holes for your legs in circular straps designed to hold your weight. We're talking across the family jewels here. How could that ever be described as "more comfortable" than nothing?

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SeaJay once bubbled...
My point? Don't let the DIR Nazis tell you that "there's nothing better than a BP/Wings setup."
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Aha. Well, there goes the pretense of objectivity right out the window.

I was never truly objective to this test... I was FOR the BP/Wings setup based on what I was reading here. I was in FAVOR of them. I was totally unobjective. I was sure that I'd been diving with crappy gear, gear that was designed "for the people" and not anything special. I just couldn't make it work, though. It took me five dives to get me back to believing that I was actually of the ilk that a tried-and-true jacket design was my favorite.

Hey, I've got an idea... I'm looking for a dive... Putting one together here in Beaufort, SC... A dive to the Betsy Ross (artificial reef) which is a 430' Liberty ship in 100 feet of water, about 15 miles off the coast in 80'-100' visibility. Right next to her is another 170' ship. The pair rarely sees divers. If you can bring a BP/Wing setup and convince me that it's superior to a jacket, then I'll pay you the $200 that you'll have saved me by getting me to buy one of those instead of this Scubapro. This dive's on me... I'll even supply you with air.

...Or I can come to you. You in Florida with the rest of the cavers? If I buy a BP/Wing setup over the Scubapro Classic, I'll pay you the difference as a "thank you" for saving me the money.

And in the meantime, I'll be diving with the "right" stuff and won't waste my time and money on something that I'll hate in the future.

Whaddaya say?

 

[JimC]

but it's a fact that integreated weights, pull dumps and air integrated, wireless dive computers are simpler and less task loading than weight belts, nonditchable trim weights, modified dive techniques so that you don't use a pull dump, and diving by using charts, graphs, mathematics, and a timer.

Integrated weights are avalable for a bp/wing. Many DIR people don't use them because they (and I) find the added complexity uneccisary. I love my weight belt. It's comfortable, easy, interchangable and very simple.

My pull dump came off on me. 3rd dive on the rig. Lucky it was after the dive. As for modified dive techniques for the pull dump.. I haven't used the inflator hose to dump air since about my 4th dive after O/W. Butt dump, horizontal.. nuff siad.

Wireless dive computers I have no exp with. I can see some benifits for putting your SPG on your wrist. Is it worth the extra batteries, etc.. perhaps.

All the charts, graphs, math, stage bottles and gear.. Thats the requirement to do the diveing they do. They carry all of that because the dive requires it. For a typical rec dive.. most of that stuff goes away.

 

[large_diver]

I didn't realize BCs were opinionated...;-)

Good write-up. More opinions are always good.

I have recently switched to a BP and feel like I am a "convert". Glad to see you have evaluated the choices and have selected what works for YOU.

Dive safe!

So in short, I found the back inflate BC's to be opinionated

 

[Rockhound]

out a couple of BC's and found the type you prefer. Being comfortable with your gear is paramount to being comfortable in the water.

I have a Jacket styled BC, a Zeagle Ranger and an old backplate/wings type BC with simple webbing straps (no pockets, a hollow backplate for weight integration, which I stopped using, and not much else). For their purposes, they all did the job.

After a few months with the Zeagle, I find it to be all the things you did not: Balanced U/W, stable at the surface (and comfortable in rough water...). The pockets are useless, but I don't use them anyway, the pull dump came with it, but I may swap that out (but the hose is thankfully short). I haven't tried my trim weights, since I don't need them, but it does have that capability. As for recent complaints on the ripcord system, I purposely dumped my weights (shotbags) in the pool last night and I had no problem rethreading the ripcord. I LIKE the Zeagle, but that doesn't mean it works for you.

As for your diving problems, it really does sound like you were overweighted somehow. All that shifting of air at depth was sign the rig had a lot of air in the bladder (for me, my Jacket is MOST annoying when I wear a lot of weight when in a 7mm or heavy weighted for some other types of diving, since it tries to float away from my body, while the weights are pulling my butt down. )


It sounds like you have thought things through, and I'm happy for you. Keep diving, have fun!

(oh, as an aside, for working fossil beds, I've used an old Davenport (15lb. Fortress) boat anchor attached to 100' of line on a my dive flag line handle..... I do this instead of putting a lot of weight on my old bod (the line doesn't have to be big like for a boat, but just enough to hold you). The anchor is set and I slide down the line to the end. Then I slowly work upcurrent through the gravel beds, wrapping up the line as I go. When I get to the anchor, I simply pick it up and drift downcurrent to the place I started, where I reset the anchor and start again, working further downstream. Be aware that there is an entanglement hazard and carry a knife where you can get at it. I've never had a problem but that hazard exists. DON'T use your BC as a lift bag for the anchor. In a good current, its easy to pick the anchor up without inflating your BC, because such inflation would be a BAD THING.

Plus, the knife is good for another hazard: To protect you from bozos like the one who hit me with a jon boat on my last trip to the Chipola).

 

[MikeFerrara]

SeaJay,
Where do I start?...
I believe you were over weighted. I don't think you understand the fundimentals of propper trim. I am not a DIR **** or anything else but I have use only back inflate for years and now use only bp/wing for doubles or single tank). I am horizantal at depth. I can assume and maintain any position I choose without kicking my feet) and I do not get pushed on my face at the surface. I can come close with nearly any bc (with some extra effort) but have never found the shear perfection and streamlinning with anything other than a bp/wing. If I could get you in the water in a half hour you would be totally amazed at the eas with which you would slip through the water compared to wearing a parachute (jacket). I let divers take the set up for a spin (at no cost) and they are all tossing the jackets and even the zeagles. I think your test was invalid. You should get help setting it all up and try again.

 

[SeaJay]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
SeaJay,
Where do I start?...
I believe you were over weighted.

I was wearing 10 lbs all weekend, and using a single AL80 tank. I was wearing very little weight at all.

I don't think you understand the fundimentals of propper trim.

Well, I am a newbie, so you might have a point. But I haven't found the "fundimentals" to be too elusive... It's not like rocket science here. I had very little gear and very little weight, and only a couple of places to put it. And I could find no balance with the BP/Wings or other back inflates that was as good as the balance built into the jacket style BC's.

If I could get you in the water in a half hour you would be totally amazed at the eas with which you would slip through the water compared to wearing a parachute (jacket). I let divers take the set up for a spin (at no cost) and they are all tossing the jackets and even the zeagles. I think your test was invalid. You should get help setting it all up and try again.

That's it. I'm throwing down... Where are you? I'm coming on your next dive. Put me in the water for half an hour and convert me (at no cost). Please! I'd love to understand this fascination with the BP/Wings setup, and I'd love to save the money over buying the Classic.

 

[JimC]

I was wearing 10 lbs all weekend, and using a single AL80 tank. I was wearing very little weight at all.

Well..

10 lbs, a SS BP and a SS STA in a 3/2mm suit is probably netting about 18 lbs. If you didn't drop weight for the BP, you were probably over weighted.

 

[MikeFerrara]

SeaJay

I am in Indiana. We are diving Haigh quarry (Ill) this weekend and Gilboa Ohio next weekend. I'm not sure where the weekend after that but I could let you know.

As far as trim there are two huge advantages to the bp. One is the weight of the bp itself. You can take some of the weight off your waist (where you don't want it) and put nearer the air bladder where you do want it. The difference between your center of gravity and center of buoyancy is what causes the head up position at depth and being pushed on your face at the surface. Putting the weight in the right place solves both problems. You only want enough ditchable weight to allow you to swim the rig up in case of a bc failure so if extra weight is needed you want to add most of it to the plate P-weight. Another advantage is the stability. If the harness and crotch strap are correctly adjusted the unit sits rigidly on your back. Your trim will be more consistant without the whole thing flopping around.

Then there is the difference in streamlining. In order to realize this benifit you mest first achieve correct trim and it helps to have good finning technique.

Got to go for now. I could show you easier than tell you. My invitation stands.

Mike