Narcosis Properties of Different Gases

[syntaxerrorsix]

It is the scientist who set out to prove O2 is narcotic and it was their choice to design their experiment that way.

I remember another experiment where they compress a mouse fast in 100% O2 at I think 11 bar. The mouse looses consciousness first, and then regains consciousness when it is decompressed. That is how the scientist proves O2 is narcotic (i.e. the mouse narcs out before it convulses... or mice simply do not convulse...).

I think it would be difficult for a scientist to show that O2 is narcotic at 30 meters in N32, when there is no sign of narcosis in humans in a chamber in 100% O2 at 18 meters.

They could try though!

---------- Post added August 27th, 2013 at 04:39 PM ----------



Not working hard at all when performing the tasks I described in a cave. If anything, the metabolic rate slows down because you are moving as little as possible, but you have to be accurate when working on lines (accuracy you lose when you are narced). CO2 (or CO2 retention and CO2 narcosis) would not be at play in my experience (as I described it)

Raising the Setpoint from 0.7 to 1.1 pPO2 and all other things being equal the narcosis goes away.

No point talking about it. It is something which people can try (we are a bit off topic I think).

I didn't reply to your set point exercise, I replied to this

"I do not think we would notice/perceive narcosis in a recreational dive Open Water and OC unless we were asked to perform some task and the environment is demanding (low vis., bit of current, light, use different tools, store them, take them...).




---------- Post added August 27th, 2013 at 05:46 PM ----------

It doesn't matter however, we've determined that several research agencies don't agree with your "field tests" in regards to narcosis and that most folks here trust science and data over personal opinion and perception.

 

[PfcAJ]

I think it would be difficult for a scientist to show that O2 is narcotic at 30 meters in N32, when there is no sign of narcosis in humans in a chamber in 100% O2 at 18 meters.

They could try though!

It wouldn't be a difficult study to design. The problem would be reliably testing the subjects and funding. The basic design would involve having trials with varying amounts of o2 in the inspired gas and measuring the subjects resultant impairment. Pretty much the same thing they did in one of the studies I showed you.

I'd still like to see some evidence of no narcosis at 18m on o2. Surely you will deliver, right?

 

[gianaameri]

---------- Post added August 28th, 2013 at 02:53 AM ----------

It wouldn't be a difficult study to design. The problem would be reliably testing the subjects and funding. The basic design would involve having trials with varying amounts of o2 in the inspired gas and measuring the subjects resultant impairment. Pretty much the same thing they did in one of the studies I showed you.

I'd still like to see some evidence of no narcosis at 18m on o2. Surely you will deliver, right?

No reported narcosis on chamber dives at 18 meters on 100% O2.

Any chamber operator/doctor ever heard of any?

As to your study, I suspect scientists don't do it because it would be a waste of their time and money and reputation.

O2 is NOT narcotic at recreational diving depths (i.e. N32 to 100').

O2 is metabolised while N is not and N has significant effects on narcosis even at shallower depths than we may think:

"We could show that even relatively moderate hyperbaric conditions may have an influence on the perception of pain." ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22400447 ).

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

What actual evidence do you have to support your statement (and that of the buddies) above?

---------- Post added August 28th, 2013 at 02:53 AM ----------



No reported narcosis on chamber dives at 18 meters on 100% O2.

Any chamber operator/doctor ever heard of any?

As to your study, I suspect scientists don't do it because it would be a waste of their time and money and reputation.

O2 is NOT narcotic at recreational diving depths (i.e. N32 to 100').

O2 is metabolised while N is not and N has significant effects on narcosis even at shallower depths than we may think:

"We could show that even relatively moderate hyperbaric conditions may have an influence on the perception of pain." ( Does inert gas narcosis have an ... [Undersea Hyperb Med. 2012 Jan-Feb] - PubMed - NCBI ).

You are not entitled to create your own facts. You're going to have to accept that other people trust the science and data provided and no one so far corroborates your theories.

 

[gianaameri]

You are not entitled to create your own facts. You're going to have to accept that other people trust the science and data provided and no one so far corroborates your theories.

There is no scientific peer reviewed paper that supports the notion that O2 is narcotic at recreational depths/exposures (i.e. N32 at 100').

Any diver who thinks with his own head and reads the actual research available to date would be highly skeptical of any claim to the contrary.

I am not making anything up (please note that you seem to be unable to write a post without making some form of personal attack) and I very much welcome any further research (not training agency bull-s.) on the subject. I always keep an open mind to new information as it becomes available.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

I am not making anything up (please note that you seem to be unable to write a post without making some form of personal attack) and I very much welcome any further research (not training agency bull-s.) on the subject. I always keep an open mind to new information as it becomes available.

I never mention training agency. I mention the Rubicon Foundation and DAN. Both respected research sources. Are you willing to provide links to support Nitrox alleviating narcosis? The links I provided completely disagree with your assertion.

 

[nimoh]

I never mention training agency. I mention the Rubicon Foundation and DAN. Both respected research sources. Are you willing to provide links to support Nitrox alleviating narcosis? The links I provided completely disagree with your assertion.

I believe the argument is that the publications you cited do not conclusively prove that oxygen is narcotic at recreational depths. Based partly on this and partly on review of all publications, there are absolutely no publications to prove that oxygen is narcotic at recreational depths which in turn proves that oxygen is not narcotic at recreational depths.

 

[gianaameri]

Back from snorting some O2... got some of the stuff delivered from the local street dealer... you guys were right... boy do I feel high!!! (joke of course, don't call the DEA please...).

Can somebody help me source the following:

Bennett, P.B. 1970. The Narcotic Effects on Hyperbaric Oxygen, Proceedings of the Fourth International Congress on Hyperbaric Medicine ?

It is the only study cited (indirectly) by my friend syntaxerrorsix which I have been unable to read and I'd like to consider it.

 

[PfcAJ]

I believe the argument is that the publications you cited do not conclusively prove that oxygen is narcotic at recreational depths. Based partly on this and partly on review of all publications, there are absolutely no publications to prove that oxygen is narcotic at recreational depths which in turn proves that oxygen is not narcotic at recreational depths.

I don't think 'proof' works quite like that.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

I believe the argument is that the publications you cited do not conclusively prove that oxygen is narcotic at recreational depths. Based partly on this and partly on review of all publications, there are absolutely no publications to prove that oxygen is narcotic at recreational depths which in turn proves that oxygen is not narcotic at recreational depths.

It does prove that O2 is narcotic, just not as narcotic as N at lower partial pressures. When discussing "recreational diving" we can assume the depth is 130' or less. 100' END's are common due to the fact that we don't really start seeing narcosis until we hit this depth without some other underlying cause such as CO2 retention for example.

All this is to state that the narcotic difference between 21% and 32% is damn near a wash because the narcosis that a diver likely encounters will be a combination of all three gases. DAN agrees with this and so do a few other reporting agencies.

If there's a counter argument I'd just like to see some actual research to dispute it. Currently the consensus is that the use of Nitrox is to extend NDL dives and accelerate decompression schedules not to reduce narcosis.