NAUI Open Water Class Requirements

[supergaijin]

Theoretically the Agencies do not allow sub-standard certifications- that is why they have published 'minimum Standards' which must be met for the instructor to certify the student. The instructor agrees to aabide by those Standards in order to use the Agency's name in order to sell diving instruction.

Certain individual instructors or dive centers set their bar at the 'minimum Standard' and budget their course and advertise a price for that goal. They target people looking to get their certification as cheaply as possible.

It seems as if Dumpster has started his daughter's training himself and as her parent, he has every 'right' to do so. He knows as well as anyone here the limitations of buying a card. As long as safety is not compromised underwater, it is a legitimate question. However IMO it also a bit rich for Dumpster to chastise the 'cheapness' of a course when he has actively sought it out... because it was the cheapest.

Nothing looks like a cheap suit, quite like a cheap suit.

 

[vincent54]

My concern is with a person who doesn't have a dad like DD. They will find an inexpensive class under the assumption they will get the industry standard. It's too late on a open water dive to find out the training you received was inadequate. How is the general public to know what is minimal , adequate training. It is up to the certifying agencies to maintain safe training across the board.

 

[supergaijin]

My concern is with a person who doesn't have a dad like DD. They will find an inexpensive class under the assumption they will get the industry standard. It's too late on a open water dive to find out the training you received was inadequate. How is the general public to know what is minimal , adequate training. It is up to the certifying agencies to maintain safe training across the board.

There are bodies like the RSTC and ANSI which publish guidelines for recreational training agencies. NAUI CMAS and BSAC do not subscribe to the RSTC apparently because the RSTC Standards are too low. As we have seen in this thread, NAUI instrutors can also set the bar 'low like limbo'. I personally have never seen any difference between PADI/NAUI/CMAS divers of similar experience levels- despite how much people like to defend/promote their own certifying agency.

If the certifying agencies were also to set up 'active' quality control over their certified instructors, the price of learning to dive would increase astronomically as these 'scuba police' need to be paid.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

In cases like this, the standard should be the same regardless of cost. If the standard isn't met, the certifying agency should suspend the teaching status. The argument you get what you pay for doesn't work in a case like this. Just because something is expensive, doesn't guarantee a quality product. I am surprised the dive industry lacks a peer review to evaluate the competency of it's instructors, and allows substandard certifications.

It doesn't always work, but it is a general indication of whether the instructor is looking at the standards as a minimum or maximum for class content. In my agency ... which happens to be the one named in the title of this thread ... adding content isn't just tolerated, it's encouraged. NAUI recognizes that standards only provide a framework, that student ability and learning style varies from person to person, and that environments play a huge role in determining what should be taught, emphasized, and embellished with additional material. How much pool time is adequate? How many dives does your student really need to master the class objectives? How do you even define mastery? These things are going to vary from class to class, from instructor to instructor, and from student to student. Agencies have an agenda ... which is to produce classes that will appeal to the widest audience ... which happens to be the tourist diver. Dive shops have an agenda ... which is usually to produce classes that will cost them the least amount of money ... allowing them to offer the most appealing price to the available customer base. Instructors also have an agenda ... which can be anywhere in the continuum of quickest/least amount of effort to most thorough/most amount of effort. The latter tends to cost more because it takes longer and ... if it includes more pool hours .... tends to cost the instructor/dive op more money to offer that level of training.

No, it's not always true that you get what you pay for ... but most times it does give you an indication of what type of business plan the dive op/instructor has in mind when they put their curriculum together.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Peter Guy]

Since this thread has gone a bit beyond DD's specific issue, I just want to comment on the following notion from one of DCBC's posts:

NAUI teaches people to dive independently of a Divemaster or Instructor...

This is, of course, a false statement -- just as it would be if it read "PADI teaches" or "BSAC teaches" and on. Remember, Agencies don't teach, instructors do. And what any particular instructor teaches, while shaped by the agency, is up to the instructor. There is nothing within the PADI standards, for example, that prohibits me from requiring my PADI Open Water to require 100+ hours of in-water time prior to certification. In fact, according to the PADI theory of teaching, if I decide it takes 100+ hours, that would BE the standard since the standards are based on performance, not a minimum time.

If any class meets "standards" then the student should be/will be competent to dive in conditions similar to which she was trained. Whether it is PADI's "mastery" of all the skills, NAUI's "dive with a loved one" standard, etc., the basics are all there -- or at least it should be. OTOH, you can have the highest standards in the world but if the instructor blows them off, you may not/will not get a well trained diver.

Last point -- I enjoy teaching children (generally) and have kicked parents out, invited them in, etc. But, given what I have read of DD's "requirements" -- no way would I let him be in the classroom, at the pool or in the water with his daughter. My last teen aged student was an interesting case -- father (who is an excellent diver) helped out in the class at times and was very backed off from interfering, while her mother (who quit diving) was all involved. I ended up shooing the mother away!

 

[DCBC]

...This is, of course, a false statement ...nothing within the PADI standards, for example, that prohibits me from requiring my PADI Open Water to require 100+ hours of in-water time prior to certification.

Peter, it's the content of the program to which I refer. I'm sure that the PADI training Staff (and your students) would wonder why it took you 100 + hours to cover the required content for PADI certification (especially if a complaint was received).

...And what any particular instructor teaches, while shaped by the agency, is up to the instructor.

Not if the Instructor operates within the framework of the Agency and its Standards.. As you know, PADI Instructors (unlike their NAUI counterparts) are not encouraged to teach beyond or deviate from the Agency Standards (PADI Instructor Agreement: "I also will not deviate from the applicable standards when representing myself as a PADI Member").

We are talking different training philosophies here. Although the Agency doesn't do the actual training, there are different levels of restriction placed on the Instructor by every Agency (PADI being among the most restrictive). After the minimums are met, a NAUI Instructor can continue additional training and require competance as a condition for certification. A PADI Instructor cannot in the same way.

,,,Whether it is PADI's "mastery" of all the skills, NAUI's "dive with a loved one" standard, etc., the basics are all there -- or at least it should be. OTOH, you can have the highest standards in the world but if the instructor blows them off, you may not/will not get a well trained diver.

Yes, that's the way it 'should be,' but all too often that's not the case. This is evidenced by poor or non-swimmers being certified with the blessings of some Agencies.

A NAUI Certification Card reflects:

1. The 'minimum standards' of the NAUI organization; and
2. The Standards of the particular NAUI Instructor.

are met.

 

[stevensamler]

I would never undermine the instructor's authority... unless of course he/she tried to do something that I didn't think was safe, then I would, of course intervene.

Kinda funny, on her twin brother's "class" (5 years ago) I was tagging along and had to hold and calm down a student who bolted for the surface and was freaking out. The instructor had not noticed, and I just remained stationary and submerged, holding her hips and keeping her head out of the water until the instructor noticed the issue and then he ascended and dealt with her, and got her positively buoyant and then I released her. The instructor was very appreciative of my help.

On their older brothers certification dive (years earlier), a student bolted for the surface and refused to descend, so the instructor asked me (an uninsured, non-active instructor) to tow the guy to shore (after he exhausted himself on the surface). I was very hesitant to leave my kid with the rest of the class, but I did as asked and towed the guy to standing depth and then swam back to the group.

I guess I'm just price shopping for the cheapest cert card...I'm just amazed what the standards are. Back when I completed the NAUI instructor course in the late 70's, they had some pretty high standards for training. I had incorrectly assumed that the organization had maintained some degree of rigorousness..

Does that mean you don't have to do a reg exchange at 30 fsw while buddy breathing to get your c card. NASDS 1973.

 

[TMHeimer]

I wonder what % of parents wanting to get their kids (or themselves) certified that don't have DD's instructor backround and experience actually have any idea where to go? Lots available on the internet--you can check out agency standards, hours, etc. but does that register if you are a layman yourself? I knew nothing. I knew later on it's a good idea to know the rescue skills that haven't been taught for years in OW course by most agencies. I'm always told the accident rate is lower than ever, but it still seems scary.

 

[DCBC]

I wonder what % of parents wanting to get their kids (or themselves) certified that don't have DD's instructor backround and experience actually have any idea where to go? Lots available on the internet--you can check out agency standards, hours, etc. but does that register if you are a layman yourself? I knew nothing. I knew later on it's a good idea to know the rescue skills that haven't been taught for years in OW course by most agencies. I'm always told the accident rate is lower than ever, but it still seems scary.

Statistics can be made to prove anything. If you have a competent Instructor, s/he can train a diver to be more competent in 50 hours than they can in 20 hours. Unfortunately, that's the difference in the bar of training programs today than say in the 50's to the 80's. Shorter courses don't accomplish the same goal largely because the goals have changed. The philosophy now seems to be how little training can a Diver be given to be "Certified." A high number will not feel comfortable to dive without a DM or Instructor, so it will be easier to get them back for a couple of other training courses (more certifications and more profit). Eventually the Diver will feel the same level of confidence that a Diver use to feel when they were initially certified before the training standards were lowered.