ericfine50
Contributor
Is anyone going? If so, can you give us that can't go a rundown of the conference?
Thanks all
Eric
Thanks all
Eric
NAUI TEC's Deep Stop Conference
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WYDT
Contributor
I know several people that are going, I couldn't make it unfortunately. I'll try to get one of them to post any info they can afterward.
OP
ericfine50
Contributor
Thanks - There should be some good info given out.
Eric
Eric
WYDT
Contributor
Some info on the conference...
FROM ANOHTER MESSAGE LIST>>>
List:
I just came back from the NAUI Deep Stops Workshop in Tampa, and I wanted to share some troubling thoughts.The schedule, abstracts, and speakers can be reviewed on: http://www.nauitec.com/ by clicking on "upcoming events" on the LHS , and then Guest Speaker Abstracts and Workshop Schedule in the centre.
The slides and (maybe? the talks) will soon be sent to NAUI in PDF format so that may provide a source for later discussion. There are also new NAUI RGBM tables incorporating "deep stops" which will be available in a week. V-Planner has a v3.02 VPM-B disc incorporating deep stops which I picked up, although I havn't played with it yet.
Those of you who attended are wholeheartedly welcomed and encouraged to shoot me down if I misrepresent anything at all. I am not going into everything that was presented, but will just highlight a few select areas.
Michael Powell from NASA presented some data from (I seem to remember) zero gravity experiments in human subjects. He attempted to quantify a relationship between getting bent, and the amount of excercise on decompression. Whilst it certainly is not a surpise that those subjects who excerted themselves more got hammered worse, the data suggested that a surprisingly trivial degree of excertion accounted for a much worse outcomes than I would have expected. Some subjects just lifted their arms up and down a set number of times. In one of the groups studied, I believe the subjects took one step in 25 mins, and this was compared to 5 steps, and 25 steps, and no steps. It was suggested that 1 step would cause a certain degree of DCI, but that 5 steps would cause a disproportionally greater incidence, and that 25 steps would not account for much more. Unfortunately this data was just presented in the shape of a graph, so we don't have a qualitative and quantitative measurement of the DCI or the physiological stress imposed on these individuals in terms of decompression penalty incurred.The practical implication is that I am now much more concerned about aberrant and unnecessary finning action during decompression. The thought of climbing back onto a boat with double 104's and several deco tanks seems somewhat less attractive now.
The same presenter made an interesting comment about microbubble formation in the circulatory system. It seems that current thinking is that these bubbles are largely formed within the capillaries, and that these are formed during the expansion and collapse of these; the effect is known as Reynold's Cavitation for you Physics buffs. I suspect that the Bernoullie effect has something to do with this since the transmural pressure is less in higher flow areas. The clincher though was that it is now believed that there is not enough turbulence around heart valves and their cusp tips to generate microbubbles, even if they are mechanical prosthetic valves. I apologise to those who I have previously misled as I previously thought that this was the main source.
Alf Brubakk introduced some encouraging ideas concerning NO (Nitric Oxide), Heat Shock Proteins, specifically HSP 70, and 90, and their effect on O2 radicals and getting hammered. As we ALL know, HSP's constitute part of the immune response, and form part of the complex interplay between stress to the body in anyshape, way and form, and the eventual clinical consequences. The practical inferences that were made are as follows: In one experiment, they heated some lab rats to 42 degrees centigrade before exposing them to a hyperbaric load. The heated rats did better clinically than the controls. In another experiment which compared controls to excersising vigorously 24 hours before only, excercising during hyperberic stress, and excercising within the 48 hours afterwards, the group which excercised roughly 24h before did better......much better. The implication is that that NO, HSP's and the immune response play a critical role in this. Perhaps it is suggested that there exist genetic susceptibilities togetting bent that could be explained by different isoforms of HSP proteins. Ahaaaa, the light dawns...so that's why those WKPP survivors are genetically superior to all of us!So should be all run marathons 24 hours before a big dive, should we even start looking for new drugs that can alter / modulate the NO / HSP response, could we even use recombinant DNA technology to make our diving more fun?
Jean-Pierre Imbert of Comex showed us a graph from his commercial diving database. It seems to suggest that vestibular symptoms present on the whole much earlier than neuro and articular hits, both in that order. I find it interesting that there is a separate and distinct vestibular hit as opposed to a CNS group. The implications are obvious.
One or two speakers spent an inordinate amount of time talking about deep air diving almost as though it was the norm without any reference or comparisons to what we would regard an acceptable gas. It was troubling to hear the implication that US Navy divers use Air ?almost exclusively??!, even in their breathers despite all the technology and resources at their disposal. Not sure if I believe that. One well respected individual in talking about his recent trials with the "New RGBM" algorithm mentioned that he and some of the NAUI ITC candidates were performing dives to 240 ft with a He fraction of 16%. On one dive to 300 ft they were on a FiHe of 40%....I think their mix was 16/40. Just as well G3 didn't stay for day 2 otherwise it would have been a bloodbath.
Never mind, I enjoyed seeing some friendly faces from this list, and also getting the opportunity to put faces behind some of the names. It's sad to say this, but G3 really was the only one who gave unequivocal practical Real World advice. All the presenters came from widely differing backgrounds, and the conference suffered from some of the speakers not knowing or targetting their audience. One of our Quest subscribers Dr. Marv Gozum was cited at the end as a "DAN Diving Doctor" who has helped to test the new NAUI RGBM protocol. I was dismayed that there seemed to be praise for a British diver who was separated from his team in a recent "successful wreck world depth record" in the English Channel as he was testing the new NAUI RGBM protocol.
Thoughts, Feedback, Critisism? Despite there being some very specific inferences made by some of the presenters, I remain sceptical about the direction some of the science is pointing towards. In many instances, the science in merely validating what WKPP have been doing all along anyway.
I look forward to hearing the thougths of some of the other attendees on this list.Cheers,
Christos
And a follow up from George Irvine III.
Christos, you are leaving out some good stuff , among them - 1) the exercisething showed a remarkable reduction in DCS with physical fitness and withexercising right up to the day before the dive, 2) high helium contentproved to show a significant reduction in dcs over air or nitrox for sameprofile, 3) the high correlation of VO2 max to not getting bent, and otherthings that were proven with experiments, albeit on rats, that validate whatI have been saying for the last ten years. I actually mentioned each one ofthese things as reasons why we made changes in WKPP, and then NASA andothers put out data that more than supported what we have been doing allalong ( due to me requiring it).
FROM ANOHTER MESSAGE LIST>>>
List:
I just came back from the NAUI Deep Stops Workshop in Tampa, and I wanted to share some troubling thoughts.The schedule, abstracts, and speakers can be reviewed on: http://www.nauitec.com/ by clicking on "upcoming events" on the LHS , and then Guest Speaker Abstracts and Workshop Schedule in the centre.
The slides and (maybe? the talks) will soon be sent to NAUI in PDF format so that may provide a source for later discussion. There are also new NAUI RGBM tables incorporating "deep stops" which will be available in a week. V-Planner has a v3.02 VPM-B disc incorporating deep stops which I picked up, although I havn't played with it yet.
Those of you who attended are wholeheartedly welcomed and encouraged to shoot me down if I misrepresent anything at all. I am not going into everything that was presented, but will just highlight a few select areas.
Michael Powell from NASA presented some data from (I seem to remember) zero gravity experiments in human subjects. He attempted to quantify a relationship between getting bent, and the amount of excercise on decompression. Whilst it certainly is not a surpise that those subjects who excerted themselves more got hammered worse, the data suggested that a surprisingly trivial degree of excertion accounted for a much worse outcomes than I would have expected. Some subjects just lifted their arms up and down a set number of times. In one of the groups studied, I believe the subjects took one step in 25 mins, and this was compared to 5 steps, and 25 steps, and no steps. It was suggested that 1 step would cause a certain degree of DCI, but that 5 steps would cause a disproportionally greater incidence, and that 25 steps would not account for much more. Unfortunately this data was just presented in the shape of a graph, so we don't have a qualitative and quantitative measurement of the DCI or the physiological stress imposed on these individuals in terms of decompression penalty incurred.The practical implication is that I am now much more concerned about aberrant and unnecessary finning action during decompression. The thought of climbing back onto a boat with double 104's and several deco tanks seems somewhat less attractive now.
The same presenter made an interesting comment about microbubble formation in the circulatory system. It seems that current thinking is that these bubbles are largely formed within the capillaries, and that these are formed during the expansion and collapse of these; the effect is known as Reynold's Cavitation for you Physics buffs. I suspect that the Bernoullie effect has something to do with this since the transmural pressure is less in higher flow areas. The clincher though was that it is now believed that there is not enough turbulence around heart valves and their cusp tips to generate microbubbles, even if they are mechanical prosthetic valves. I apologise to those who I have previously misled as I previously thought that this was the main source.
Alf Brubakk introduced some encouraging ideas concerning NO (Nitric Oxide), Heat Shock Proteins, specifically HSP 70, and 90, and their effect on O2 radicals and getting hammered. As we ALL know, HSP's constitute part of the immune response, and form part of the complex interplay between stress to the body in anyshape, way and form, and the eventual clinical consequences. The practical inferences that were made are as follows: In one experiment, they heated some lab rats to 42 degrees centigrade before exposing them to a hyperbaric load. The heated rats did better clinically than the controls. In another experiment which compared controls to excersising vigorously 24 hours before only, excercising during hyperberic stress, and excercising within the 48 hours afterwards, the group which excercised roughly 24h before did better......much better. The implication is that that NO, HSP's and the immune response play a critical role in this. Perhaps it is suggested that there exist genetic susceptibilities togetting bent that could be explained by different isoforms of HSP proteins. Ahaaaa, the light dawns...so that's why those WKPP survivors are genetically superior to all of us!So should be all run marathons 24 hours before a big dive, should we even start looking for new drugs that can alter / modulate the NO / HSP response, could we even use recombinant DNA technology to make our diving more fun?
Jean-Pierre Imbert of Comex showed us a graph from his commercial diving database. It seems to suggest that vestibular symptoms present on the whole much earlier than neuro and articular hits, both in that order. I find it interesting that there is a separate and distinct vestibular hit as opposed to a CNS group. The implications are obvious.
One or two speakers spent an inordinate amount of time talking about deep air diving almost as though it was the norm without any reference or comparisons to what we would regard an acceptable gas. It was troubling to hear the implication that US Navy divers use Air ?almost exclusively??!, even in their breathers despite all the technology and resources at their disposal. Not sure if I believe that. One well respected individual in talking about his recent trials with the "New RGBM" algorithm mentioned that he and some of the NAUI ITC candidates were performing dives to 240 ft with a He fraction of 16%. On one dive to 300 ft they were on a FiHe of 40%....I think their mix was 16/40. Just as well G3 didn't stay for day 2 otherwise it would have been a bloodbath.
Never mind, I enjoyed seeing some friendly faces from this list, and also getting the opportunity to put faces behind some of the names. It's sad to say this, but G3 really was the only one who gave unequivocal practical Real World advice. All the presenters came from widely differing backgrounds, and the conference suffered from some of the speakers not knowing or targetting their audience. One of our Quest subscribers Dr. Marv Gozum was cited at the end as a "DAN Diving Doctor" who has helped to test the new NAUI RGBM protocol. I was dismayed that there seemed to be praise for a British diver who was separated from his team in a recent "successful wreck world depth record" in the English Channel as he was testing the new NAUI RGBM protocol.
Thoughts, Feedback, Critisism? Despite there being some very specific inferences made by some of the presenters, I remain sceptical about the direction some of the science is pointing towards. In many instances, the science in merely validating what WKPP have been doing all along anyway.
I look forward to hearing the thougths of some of the other attendees on this list.Cheers,
Christos
And a follow up from George Irvine III.
Christos, you are leaving out some good stuff , among them - 1) the exercisething showed a remarkable reduction in DCS with physical fitness and withexercising right up to the day before the dive, 2) high helium contentproved to show a significant reduction in dcs over air or nitrox for sameprofile, 3) the high correlation of VO2 max to not getting bent, and otherthings that were proven with experiments, albeit on rats, that validate whatI have been saying for the last ten years. I actually mentioned each one ofthese things as reasons why we made changes in WKPP, and then NASA andothers put out data that more than supported what we have been doing allalong ( due to me requiring it).
OP
ericfine50
Contributor
Thanks - Got it off Quest. Some good info.
Eric
Eric
100days-a-year
Contributor
I'd like to see any info on the relation to VO2 and DCS.I trained hard as a sprinter (long ago)and there are a lot of ways to improve your VO2 max.I know "gravity-impaired"people are more susceptible to DCS.Is this an additional factor?Fat and lo VO2 due to poor cardiovascular conditioning not allowing N to perfuse as efficiently?
Dr Deco
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Dear Readers:
NAUI Workshop
It is nice to see that some Scuba Board members were able to attend the NAUI Workshop. The Michael Powell referred to in the posting above by WYDD is none other than me, Dr Deco. :doctor:
For those that missed the conference and wish to see what was referred to by WYDD in that portion of the meeting, please click on the reference
http://www.doctordeco.com/
The particular piece is Decompression Gas Phase Formation in Simulated Microgravity . You may find the other articles of interest also.
Dr Deco :doctor:
NAUI Workshop
It is nice to see that some Scuba Board members were able to attend the NAUI Workshop. The Michael Powell referred to in the posting above by WYDD is none other than me, Dr Deco. :doctor:
For those that missed the conference and wish to see what was referred to by WYDD in that portion of the meeting, please click on the reference
http://www.doctordeco.com/
The particular piece is Decompression Gas Phase Formation in Simulated Microgravity . You may find the other articles of interest also.
Dr Deco :doctor:
Dr. Powell,
I must say that even remotely, the presentation you gave was one of the best of the conference. The studies have made me think a lot about exersize during deco. Though the presentation Alf made was very interesting as well in regard to pre-dive exersize. Have you seen his studies?
Kell
I must say that even remotely, the presentation you gave was one of the best of the conference. The studies have made me think a lot about exersize during deco. Though the presentation Alf made was very interesting as well in regard to pre-dive exersize. Have you seen his studies?
Kell
Dr Deco
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Dear Kell:
Dr Brubakk
Alf is, in my opinion, one of the most innovative researchers in the field of barophysiology today. Because he is in Norway, I do not see him as often as I would like.
He always has something new. His studies show an effect of exercise conditioning as something good for the body. This is a bit different from strenuous active during decompression.
I have not heard of all of the topics that he present (e.g., heat-shock proteins and DCS).
I wish that I could have been there in person. Thank you for the kind remarks.
Dr Deco :doctor:
Dr Brubakk
Alf is, in my opinion, one of the most innovative researchers in the field of barophysiology today. Because he is in Norway, I do not see him as often as I would like.
He always has something new. His studies show an effect of exercise conditioning as something good for the body. This is a bit different from strenuous active during decompression.
I have not heard of all of the topics that he present (e.g., heat-shock proteins and DCS).
I wish that I could have been there in person. Thank you for the kind remarks.
Dr Deco :doctor:
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