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Doc... you seem to be a very nice fella that just got on the wrong bus... and then somehow thought it would be a great idea to tell everybody already on the bus where they should really want to be going...

See... the deal is... this is Scuba Board and that might be the reason why you are facing such resistence to your surface supplied ideas...

Just a thought.
 
Originally posted by Uncle Pug
Doc... you seem to be a very nice fella that just got on the wrong bus... and then somehow thought it would be a great idea to tell everybody already on the bus where they should really want to be going...

LOL!! Nice analogy UP! :D
 
I may as well address the original topic just for the heck of it.
As far as penetrations go, with few exceptions there IS no safer way to go than with surface air and commercial gear. The part that makes it unfeasable for caving is that there are very few caves that are as straight as a sewer pipe, and there needs to be a diver stationed at any corner that the hose could rub on enough to cause drag. We'd also put a diver at least every 1000' to help pull hose.
A 6000' spool of solid hose (no splices)stands almost 20' tall & weighs a couple tons. Not very practical to be lugging a couple of those around.
Nice thought though.
:mean:
 
Disclaimer: I think this is a kooky idea too -- I think the best way of providing unlimited breathing media for cave divers would be to start using top-of-the-line rebreathers, not dragging umbilicals. However, I'm entertained enough by the thought of dragging umbilicals to consider what it would take to make it feasible.

Make me an umbilical that's almost as thin and flexible as cave line, and a fool-proof system to deploy it, and you might have a winner. If there were some way to make the umbilical the size of a headphone cord, it might even be reasonable. It would obviously have to carry considerable pressure to be able to supply a diver's flow rate. High-pressure hoses tend to be very unflexible, but technology has solved bigger problems.

Could we envision some sort of "environmentally-friendly" pulley/router type device that you could clip to the wall, or the gold line, and pass your umbilical through to route it through the cave? Climbers have protection, in the form of permanent bolts or temporary cams, anchored into the wall. As they pass each anchor, they clip the rope into the carabiner. A similar deal could work in a cave -- you could have anchors placed at strategic points in the cave, and divers would clip their umbilicals into the anchors as they move into the cave.

I cringe to think at how the umbilical might be removed from the cave, though... the diver probably wouldn't be able to reel it up as he left, even if it WERE the size of headphone cord... he'd have to have some device or person actively reeling the umb in.

We could take it one step further, and imagine that the umb is not reeled in -- it's left in the cave like gold line. Divers could "clip into it" with quick disconnects. We all understand that QDs are failure prone... but let's assume we have Perfect QD's. Divers carry enough OC gas to get in and get out, and use the umb's as safety devices, and as "time extenders." I understand and agree, though, that no one really wants a big old umbilical routed through pristine cave. Few people realize that exploration, the sense of being the first to ever venture into a new place, is what drives cave divers. Pristine cave is spectacular, and should be preserved at all cost. On the other hand, though, I'm not sure a permament umb, if done right, would be any more intrusive than a gold line, or a cache of stage bottles left by a support team.

Imagine dozens of divers linking into and unlinking from the umbilical as they move through the cave. Each diver carries only enough umbilical to get him from one QD point to the next.

You could even go one step further and give a lead diver a big spool of umbilical, and give each other team member a shorter length that they use to clip into the lead diver. Each team, then, has only one hook into the cave's umb, and there's only one umb going into the cave.

Now, someone's gotta run the compressor up top to keep everyone happy. Each diver would still follow his thirds on his "private" scuba gas -- so even in the event of a catastrophic compressor failure, there would be no loss of life -- the game would just turn back into "old-school" cave diving. Who would pay for the compressor? Who knows? Maybe, if amortized over a large enough number of divers, the compressor's cost might not be an issue.

Pretty crazy. Right?

- Warren
 
Doc,

Not sure if you are still hanging out here but I heard of this thread on my recent trip to Cave country and couldn't help but come back and read it.

It seems that the big picture you are trying to help us with is continous air at all times.

I can always appreciate any input into my safety. The idea that the practices that some of us use are full proof is a Utopia that I do not live in.

Some cave divers choose to use different methods to keep air supply with them.

Diving with a redundant system that is isolatable(is that a word?).
Double tanks and double regs with the ability to Isolate. Meaning a failure of either reg doesn't shut down air just that broken reg or a failure(burst disk or knob) will leave only half of your tanks for the exit. Or lastly in the event that on your dive the manifold mysteriously disappears or both bursts disks go some choose to use completely independent systems.

Then we add the Stage Bottles. A completely independent bottle with its own regulator and pressure gauge.

Some choose to only breath stage bottles leaving the redundant system to exit in case of failure.

Others choose to do it the other way around. Using the redundant system and having and oh crap bottle.

Some of these stages bottles are not breathed at all and just left in the caves at critical points and distances appart in case there is a failure of the other stage bottles and redundant system.

We call them Safety Bottles. While they are not connected to a surface supply they are independent of the diver and can be enough to get you to the next bottle or the exit.


Everyone has their own limitations on their safety and can make the decision on how many safe guards to put in place for their dive.

Personally I like to have a decompression bottle waiting for me at the exit on every dive I make. This means in case of a full gas failure for me or my buddy We will have just enough gas to make it to the exit and a nice bottle waiting. Or in case of a contingency that we extended our bottom time beyond planned, silt out, buddy loss or confusion there is a bottle with the proper mix for decompression.

Diving with a buddy with the same safety attitude also makes diving very easy. Lately my buddy and I have been bringing a deco bottle for each on all our dives.

FYI on the recent rescue at Little River(FEB). Of the remaining 3 dive team members in the water, only 2 of them had planned for a decompression dive and there was only 2 deco bottles waiting for them at the exit. Of the 3 one of them was completely out of air and they had accumulated about 40 min decompression stop according to their computers. How do I know? Because I brought them deco bottles and took their empty ones away and stayed with them for their whole decompression. It took me atleast 10 mins to finish gearing up and get down to them with 2 Oxygen bottles. When I
checked on them they had 28 mins of deco on their computers. not taking into account all the exertion and rapid ascent they made to try and save their buddy.
 
Hi William,
Thanks for the response. Yep, I'm still hanging out here. Wow, I had no idea I'd become imfamous enough to have this thread discussed in Cave Country in Florida! Maybe I should design a "Caver's Nemesis" logo or something. It could include a Desco pot or a Superlight with devil's horns, a pitchfork, umbilical and a barred cave entance ;-)
You're right though, about my belief in continous and effectively-uninterrupted breathing media supply. In re-reading all the posts, it seems that there are two distinctly seperate considerations: one is equipment and the other is philosophy. I think equipment discussions -- even heated ones -- are healthy and should be encouraged. As to diving philosophy, I think that's up to each individual diver and no individual, group or certifying agency has a lock on The Truth.
In spite of a previous poster's observations, I'm actually far from having "the typical commercial diver's macho attittude." Jeeze, I'm past middle age, partially disabled, have a gut and am just now getting back into light recreational diving. There ain't much of a macho threat here...
You've heard the old saw, "There's old divers and there's bold divers, but there aren't any old, bold divers." As the years rolled by and my experience increased, I became progressively more conservative in my own diving philosophy and while I was working, this served me well.
I've got fewer problems with folks who want to dive in caves in scuba for the challenge or the rush than some of them have with me for pointing out that it's not the safest way to make penetrations.
Remember my earlier observation that there is too much of a division or "wall" between the rec diving and commercial diving sectors? Parts of this thread have only reinforced this belief and it's unfortunate, because there's much to be gained from both fields. The division between scuba or surface air is somewhat arbitrary as they're both means to a similar end, though have different strengths. I initially stated that there were economics involved in what gear and methods are promoted and I stand by that. The scuba industry -- naturally -- only promotes scuba as the answer to all problems and situations. It's not, but there are strong economic disincentives to avoid exploring the best -- or alternative non-scuba -- approaches to various underwater equations. I think that this is bound to change over time.
Also, something almost wholly absent from both discussion fields -- forget safety for a moment -- is the fact that some aspects of commercial/surface air supplied diving can be FUN. Spearfishing on an oil rig, for example, wearing nothing more than a WWII-era design Jack Browne mask and fins is a BLAST (cheap, too)!
I'll start working on that logo.

Best regards
Doc
 
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