Non professional divers taking very young children diving (even in a pool)

[Pullnglide]

I see it in the St. Andrews Jetties from time to time with an adult and a small child in the "kiddie pool" (for those not familiar it is usually pretty good vis and about 10' deep max) I always approach them with some sound advice and have actually had one father stop what he was doing and took his very young daughters scuba gear off, not to say he didn't put it back on when I left the area. There is not much you can do other than report them to the park ranger for the sake of safety for the child. We don't always have the whole story to as what the situation could be but its never a bad idea just to strike up a conversation and not necessarily go into what they are doing.

 

[Wookie]

. Cave men doing, in retrospect, really dumb stuff. A few lived to breed.

And having fun with it. What LDS worker has fun with it, any more?

Guy comes into a dive shop and wants to service a reg. Lets slip his plans (which many of us did back in the day). Causes all kinds of angst and stress int he dive shop, because the dive shop employees were taught the "new way" which has lead to CYA, liability first, safety at any cost attitude. The workers in the dive shop are now not having any fun.

I worked for the government for 20-something years. I got tired of not having fun at work.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

Guy comes into a dive shop and wants to service a reg. Let's slip his plans (which many of us did back in the day).

He was smart enough to come in and have the regs looked at - before he gave them to his grandkids... Lol - I am not sure I would have done that - I would have filled the tanks and tried them out in the pool - I have four kids that have survived that method. One is now certified and dives with me today.

 

[widget]

That was exactly the way I got interested in diving, my father set up a system with a long hose in the pool and I carried on. Had great fun. Still here today.

 

[Wookie]

He was smart enough to come in and have the regs looked at - before he gave them to his grandkids... Lol - I am not sure I would have done that - I would have filled the tanks and tried them out in the pool - I have four kids that have survived that method. One is now certified and dives with me today.

It seems to me that modern scuba instruction and attitudes have taken the fun out of diving.

 

[kombiguy]

When I teach, my students learn my three rules of scuba:
1. Always breathe
2. Know your NDLs
3. Have fun

 

[tomfcrist]

It seems to me that modern scuba instruction and attitudes have taken the fun out of diving.

I wouldn't say that exactly. I would venture to say that the litigious nature of our society has taken the fun out of teaching scuba/running a dive shop.

 

[Wookie]

Guy walks in a dive shop, wants to share his love of the water with his grandkids, as so many of us did when we "learned" to dive. Dive shop employee (following the rules of the shop, agency, and insurance company) tells gramps that he will kill his kids, and they won't sell him a reg, won't fix his old one, and won't rent him a tank. BOOM!! Gramps walks out all PO'd and goes out and buys a $45,000 bass boat. We've lost a certified diver forever, and 3 potentials because of our modern attitude to scuba.

An alternative might be to fix grandads reg (if possible), or sell him a new one. While doing this, tell gramps that he can have 10% off snorkel gear if he brings the kids in for snorkeling lessons. CHA-CHING!! We've sold a grand worth of gear, made gramps a loyal customer for life, and gotten the kids in the water in a manner that satisfies our love of liability and agency requirements.

I don't think Tammy and the other kids at the dive shop did anything wrong. They acted exactly as our training agencies, insurance companies, and in accordance with what every instructor since 1995 has been taught. I just think that there might be an alternative that doesn't have folks throwing away their scuba equipment in disgust.

 

[tomfcrist]

They said they couldn't fix his reg...so he wanted to rent a tank with the specific intention of "fixing" it himself and putting his grandkid on it in the pool. Lets look at this from a couple different angles in addition to the one you suggest.

Assume you sell him a new reg and rent him a tank: what do you think the lawyers are going to do to you considering you knew what his ultimate intentions were assuming something goes bad for the grandkid? The shop is screwed...and another dive shop bites the dust(in addition to the owners family being financially ruined). In my opinion not worth the risk.

Now lets assume that he wants to try to fix the reg himself and rent a tank from the shop to "test" it: The same applies as above because you know what his ultimate intentions are.

If you are renting something from a company, and intend to use the item outside of standard practices, you don't tell the company you are renting the gear from what you are doing. Its like renting a bulldozer and telling the guy you are renting it from that you plan to drive it through your neighbors house because he banged your wife.

The issue isn't about dive shops and instructors taking all the fun out of diving, its about people in this society that are willing to sue you and financially ruin you because the isles in your dive shop are too narrow to accommodate their 6ft wide wheelchair that they need to accommodate their 700lb lazy ass.

 

[Diver0001]

I suspect that if he learned to dive 40 years ago that his idea of diver training is different than the modern norm. It also sounds to me like he may be an "alpha dog"... all bark and no listen. It's hard to get anything past the wall of "I don't respect you" that people like this put up.

Ultimately you can't stop people from doing what they will do. Personally I don't see it as a grey area that you refused to rent him gear. That's a wise decision and no grey area to me. You can't put yourself in the situation of facilitating someone in doing harm. Even if he has the card he doesn't have a right to put you in that position.

I've had angry clients before because I refused to train them. I'll give you two examples.

1) I had a student in for a scuba review. She hadn't dived in over a decade (14 years?) and couldn't remember anything. None of the skills were done correctly, she couldn't remember the theory and after a couple of hours with her I suggested that her best course of action was to re-certify. I said this because I was concerned about her safety and really felt that she couldn't dive safely with her current skills level. It was also the first and only time I've ever told someone in a scuba review that I thought they should re-certify. She actually understood what I was saying and agreed... but her husband blew a friggen cork. He started stamping around and insulting me, screaming about how I just wanted to squeeze money out of him etc etc etc. I tried explaining to him that his wife needed a level of help that couldn't be facilitated in a "review" course and he nearly got violent..... I told him that I was confident in my advice and that I was sorry that it wasn't what he wanted to hear. My student (the lady) actually intervened to end it by saying that he needed to "park it" (her words) so she could explain to him later why I said what I did. We never saw them again.

2) I got a student, a young man, handed off to me to do his last OW day. He was supposed to do 2 dives and finish the theory test. I talked to him thoroughly about his training up to that point and discovered that while he was able to do certain things he was unable to understand *why*. It wasn't a big surprise. I know his instructor and I know that this particular instructor is ... well ... incompetent. I spent several hours with him trying to close the gap and finally reached the conclusion that he needed a couple of more hours of remedial learning. I failed him for the final exam and when I told his mother that I needed another day with him she completely lost it. The other instructor had told her that her kid was an outstanding diver and blah blah blah... all of it was a lie. I tried to explain to her that for his own safety it was important for him to understand both how AND why he was doing certain things.... She started screaming and insulting me. At one point she started going on about how it was impossible that someone could become an instructor when they were utterly unable to teach...... She left. The next day his other instructor certified him and I'm sure he was full of compliments about how incredible he was....

So yeah.... that's two examples but I have more. The only thing I can suggest to you is that you remain absolutely true to your own opinion. Be confident that if you think it's out of order, that it is! You can never fail by being too strict but you CAN fail by being too lackadaisical.

R..