Non-technical dive-planning software?

[daniel1948]

You're right, you'll probably never be a tech diver...that's an expensive route....$85 will seem like a drop in the bucket....

It's not cost that prevents me from tech diving. It's that I'm not a daredevil or an extreme sports man. I just like looking at the pretty fishes and corals in warm water at depths where there's still lots of light. I've read The Last Dive and Deep Descent. I love reading about it, but I have no interest in doing it.

I just use an Excel spreadsheet: one page for SAC calculations, a second for air consumption for the planned profile. The calculations are not hard and it's a nice exercise in dive planning to do it yourself.

If your needs change you can add NDL's, pO2's, OTU's, %CNS, EAD's, run times, best mix, rock bottoms, which tanks fit the profile, etc. ad nausea ... At the moment I'm mulling over the best way to add deco stop displays to the sheet.

Cheers,
Rohan.

I don't do deco diving, but I'd love to see a spreadsheet that calculates multi-level no-stop dive plans. I was under the impression that the calculations were extremely complicated.

Most computers have built in dive planners that provide the max time at depth based on previous dives logged. IOW's if you are diving, it takes into account nitrogen loading from your previous dives.

Planning a dive is important, but I think you will find if you do NDL at a given depth, and ascend VERY slowly, there is really no other planning necessary. Flat bottoms, and square profiles are easy to plan, but multilevel dive planning is not much harder. I use nitrox to extend BT on flatter profiles. On shallower reef dives where the max depth is maybe 40' the BT is generally limited by the boat assuming you are boat diving.

Initially dive planning seems like it would require some advanced calculations, but the reality is that it is not that hard. One is generally limited by NDL (deeper dives), or the captain (boat dives), or air.

I do use a computer, and the computer tells me when to come up. And I can use the tables (air or nitrox) to plan repetitive square-profile dives. But I'd like to be able to plan multi-level dives, rather than just riding the computer.

I currently use GAP and am switching to V-planner you won't like the price of GAP if you are hem and hawing over a few dollars for V-Planner. You might want to take a look at hlplanner.com for a free software program download that is very sweet in my opinion for planning as well as checking your table dive profiles and gas planning.

Hlplanner only runs on Windows. As noted above, when traveling I use a Linux computer.

Again, I'd spend money for a serious dive-safety tool. I don't care to spend money on a toy, and for now, I want to play around with dive-planning software. Maybe I'll just play with vplanner for the 30-day trial period. But that program is overkill for me, with its mixed gasses and deco stops.

 

[Gombessa]

It's not cost that prevents me from tech diving. It's that I'm not a daredevil or an extreme sports man. I just like looking at the pretty fishes and corals in warm water at depths where there's still lots of light.

Strangely enough, almost all of the tech divers I know are orders of magnitude more careful, deliberate and conservative in their dive planning and execution than the typical recreational diver. These guys are more like astronauts preparing for a mission than Eval Kineval jumping over 20 burning buses (though I imagine the level of checks and preparation actually required to safely pull off a stunt like that breaks the analogy apart).

 

[Blackwood]

[-]Strangely enough[/-], almost all of the tech divers I know are orders of magnitude more careful, deliberate and conservative in their dive planning and execution than the typical recreational diver.

Fixed.

 

[Blackwood]

I don't do deco diving, but I'd love to see a spreadsheet that calculates multi-level no-stop dive plans. I was under the impression that the calculations were extremely complicated.

First, you do deco dive. If you didn't, you could just jump in and come up whenever you want to. That's what the algorithm use to generate your tables and desired software are doing: decompression calculations.

Second, you may want to investigate using average depth to determine inert gas loading rather than trying to pre-plan a multi-level dive (which in my experience are generally determined by the environment and thus pre-planning makes little sense unless you are completely familiar with the site).

To that end, consider taking this online class: Ratio Deco. Don't let the name scare you off. You'll learn more than you can imagine about planning dives with and without decompression limits.

 

[rstofer]

I do use a computer, and the computer tells me when to come up. And I can use the tables (air or nitrox) to plan repetitive square-profile dives. But I'd like to be able to plan multi-level dives, rather than just riding the computer.

I have not seen a real-time multi-level dive planning tool. Sure, if you know the EXACT profile (and tech divers do), you can use a number of tools. But, you have to stick to the plan.

This is not consistent with "look at the fishes" diving. Depths are often unknown and varying. Unless there is a non-computer real-time planning tool, I don't see how you're going to get there.

It is true that the shallow portion of the dive is allowing decompression for the earlier deep part, the idea that you can 'guess' at an average depth seems, to me, risky. Taking the "Ratio Deco" course may provide some insight. You could also study "Deco For Divers" by Mark Powell.

There's probably enough info in "Deco For Divers" to build your own spreadsheet.

Even if you somehow manage to come up with a method for real-time multi-level dive planning, who is going to dive with you? The tables are based on a lot of experiments and are validated every time somebody dives without injury. Methods without that validation are simply a guess.

Richard

 

[RonFrank]

I do use a computer, and the computer tells me when to come up. And I can use the tables (air or nitrox) to plan repetitive square-profile dives. But I'd like to be able to plan multi-level dives, rather than just riding the computer.

Ironically folks seem to think that *riding* the computer is somehow cheating, or not using your brain, or undesirable. So they buy software, and use it topside. They HOPE they can remember what they have planned, AND follow the profile exactly. This is highly unlikely unless you do FLAT profiles at each depth even if multi-level.

Enter *riding* the computer. Here is a device that calculates your NDL or gas (if using AI) NOT based on some hypothetical profile that has a high degree of NOT being followed exactly, but rather based on what you are doing at the depth and time you are doing it!

How perfect is that? Sure you may not have a large sense of self accomplishment that you may otherwise have by spending hours on a computer trying to simulate a dive plan that you may or may not follow. However it will allow maximum time in the water, and keep you safe based on what you do, not what you Planned to do.

You don't plan on seeing a Spotted eagle ray at the beginning of a dive 15' below your planned max depth. But a computer can allow you to increase your max depth within reason so you have the opportunity to witness these unplanned critters using a profile that was not previously planned. Thinking comes into play when you see such a critter after already reaching your NDL, so the thinking diver does not race down for a view of something that violates their NDL.

I carry two computers as the one problem with them is that they CAN fail. I also have a pretty good idea of exactly what my plan is before getting in the water, but that in part is because I've been diving for a while now.

 

[daniel1948]

... almost all of the tech divers I know are orders of magnitude more careful, deliberate and conservative in their dive planning and execution than the typical recreational diver. ...

I am not the "typical" recreational diver. I am very careful. I read about how meticulous technical divers are, and about the accidents that kill them. I try to be as careful as a tech diver, while always diving a profile that allows me to make a direct ascent at any time. This is my understanding of recreational diving. If the "typical" recreational diver is less careful, then he/she is being reckless. None of us has gills.

First, you do deco dive. If you didn't, you could just jump in and come up whenever you want to.

Perhaps I used the wrong terminology. I do not intentionally make dives with required decompression stops. I can make a slow, direct ascent at any time. I always make a safety stop, but those are not "required" by the tables or the computer.

...consider taking this online class: Ratio Deco. Don't let the name scare you off. You'll learn more than you can imagine about planning dives with and without decompression limits.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll look into it.

... It is true that the shallow portion of the dive is allowing decompression for the earlier deep part, the idea that you can 'guess' at an average depth seems, to me, risky. Taking the "Ratio Deco" course may provide some insight. You could also study "Deco For Divers" by Mark Powell.

There's probably enough info in "Deco For Divers" to build your own spreadsheet.

Even if you somehow manage to come up with a method for real-time multi-level dive planning, who is going to dive with you? The tables are based on a lot of experiments and are validated every time somebody dives without injury. Methods without that validation are simply a guess.

Richard

Again, I may not have explained my intentions/wishes very well. Up to now I have always dived in a group with a DM. The DM announces something like "We are going to go down to X feet and remain for Y minutes; then we will ascent to Z feet, and you will signal me and ascend with your buddy when your pressure reaches 750 psi."

On my upcoming trip I may be diving sometimes with a buddy, but not with a DM to give us that dive profile. I know how to plan a square profile from the RDP, as a guideline, and then follow the computer. But I'd like to know how to figure the sort of multi-level plan the DMs have given us on my previous dives. Questions like: How long can I plan on staying at 80 feet and still have half my dive at 40 feet. The computer will tell me when I need to surface, but a plan could tell me how to split my time between different depths.

It will still be no-stop diving because I'll always stay well within my computer's no-stop time.

 

[rstofer]

I haven't tried the features but the PADI eRDP-ML is a multi-level dive planner (calculator style) and a tremendous upgrade to the eRDP.

I had forgotten about this gadget in the earlier discussions on this thread. You might want to look into it. See: PADI eRDPML Multilevel Electronic Recreational Dive Planner

Richard

 

[rjack321]

I am not the "typical" recreational diver. I am very careful. I read about how meticulous technical divers are, and about the accidents that kill them. I try to be as careful as a tech diver, while always diving a profile that allows me to make a direct ascent at any time. This is my understanding of recreational diving. If the "typical" recreational diver is less careful, then he/she is being reckless. None of us has gills.


Perhaps I used the wrong terminology. I do not intentionally make dives with required decompression stops. I can make a slow, direct ascent at any time. I always make a safety stop, but those are not "required" by the tables or the computer.


Thanks for the suggestion. I'll look into it.


Again, I may not have explained my intentions/wishes very well. Up to now I have always dived in a group with a DM. The DM announces something like "We are going to go down to X feet and remain for Y minutes; then we will ascent to Z feet, and you will signal me and ascend with your buddy when your pressure reaches 750 psi."

On my upcoming trip I may be diving sometimes with a buddy, but not with a DM to give us that dive profile. I know how to plan a square profile from the RDP, as a guideline, and then follow the computer. But I'd like to know how to figure the sort of multi-level plan the DMs have given us on my previous dives. Questions like: How long can I plan on staying at 80 feet and still have half my dive at 40 feet. The computer will tell me when I need to surface, but a plan could tell me how to split my time between different depths.

It will still be no-stop diving because I'll always stay well within my computer's no-stop time.

3 questions:
1) what size tank are you diving?
2) what is your surface consumption (liters/min or cf/min)?
3) diving air or nitrox?

I have a suspicision that you are probably more gas limited than you are no-deco-time limited but we can talk about that.

 

[jeckyll]

Hi Daniel,

According to your dive profile you don't have that many dives yet. In terms of 'safe diving', I'd recommend you start by looking up a post by Lamont in which he discusses "rock bottom" gas calculations.

To me, the decision for what makes a 'safe dive' starts with making sure that I always have enough gas to get both myself and my buddy safely to the surface should a failure occur.

Second, since you're diving a computer, learn exactly how it works, how conservative it is, how to change settings on it to make it more or less conservative. Then put it into plan mode and compare what the computer will do vs. what your tables say when planning square profile dives.

Next, after doing some dives well within your comfort and skill level, that you planned, compare the table results to the computer results for NDL, residual nitrogen, non-deco time remaining etc for dive 2. Again, the goal is to learn how your equipment works compared to a table for different profiles.

I don't think at the early stages of diving, getting more software is necessarily the way to go as it may just make the dives more complex than they really need to be. I also strongly believe that leaving your dive planning to a DM and doing 'trust me' dives is a good way to go either.

Plan your own dives, be conservative, do slow ascends especially over the last 30 feet and _really_ slow over the last 10 feet and get more experience.



Just my $0.02.