Non-underwater hunters please read

[drbill]

QUETZAL- Hold on here, fella. This thread was aimed at non-hunters, so non-hunters with rational responses to the issues raised have every right to post follow-ups. Likewise for marine ecologists who generally have a lot more knowledge about the resource than many fishers. Very inappropriate response on your part IMHO.

Archman does raise a good point. The sheephead fishery here in so Cal has been closed "early" a number of times because the harvest rate was too great. Now this was not due entirely to spearfishers by any means. The "party boats," charter boats that bring "large" numbers of sportfishers, that enter our waters take a large percentage of the catch. These are rod-and-reel fishers who are just too concentrated for the resource.

I'm always irritatingly "amused" by one boat, the Freelance (out of Newport Beach I believe), that not only frequents Catalina's shoreline but has a nasty habit of dropping its lines either in marine reserves or right next to them. And I thought the captains of such boats didn't believe that marine reserves work. I guess actions speak louder than words.

Dr. Bill

 

[Hank49]

If anyone would like to explain how shooting large fish isn't bad for the ecology, myself and the other marine ecologists would be glad to hear it. Personally I limit my own takes to fast-growing, common species that are not unusually large. I'm sure many of you other hunters do the same. The younger ones tend to taste better anyway.
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Shoot the big ones to make room for more smaller ones to grow. Big fish, big prawns...take up space and dominate an area. Get rid of one big one and smaller ones will grow. That's the farming concept with macrobrachium Rosenbergii.

 

[Mako Mark]

This is an emotive topic, but I agree on the "low bycatch" thing. Responsible UW hunting is a great fun way to collect healthy food, and there are few of us that dont like seafood.

Seafood is unique in modern society, because it is tho ONLY modern foodsource that consists of primarily wild species. It is the last of the food industries that is ruled by the resource management paradigm of the "tragedy of the commons"

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[Hank49]

This is an emotive topic, but I agree on the "low bycatch" thing. Responsible UW hunting is a great fun way to collect healthy food, and there are few of us that dont like seafood.

Seafood is unique in modern society, because it is tho ONLY modern foodsource that consists of primarily wild species. It is the last of the food industries that is ruled by the resource management paradigm of the "tragedy of the commons".

We are at a crossroads with seafood. You're right, today with seafood, is like we're still out shooting deer and rabbits for our dinner. Marine aquaculture will one day be the primary source of food for the planet. The only way to stop over fishing and shrimping is to out compete the fishing fleets with a low production cost in culture methods and put them out of business. I know, it's a shame some people will be out of a job, but that's the sign of a healthy economy. New jobs replace outdated ones. Blacksmiths became auto body welders. But with the fleets out of business, there will be lots more fish.

 

[Mako Mark]

We are at a crossroads with seafood. You're right, today with seafood, is like we're still out shooting deer and rabbits for our dinner. Marine aquaculture will one day be the primary source of food for the planet. The only way to stop over fishing and shrimping is to out compete the fishing fleets with a low production cost in culture methods and put them out of business. I know, it's a shame some people will be out of a job, but that's the sign of a healthy economy. New jobs replace outdated ones. Blacksmiths became auto body welders. But with the fleets out of business, there will be lots more fish.

I know what you are saying Hank, but aquaculture is not always as "green" as it sounds. Anyone who has flown over the north coast of Java has seen the hundreds of square miles of once productive mangroves, turned into abandoned shrimp farms that are the equivalent of ecological toxic waste dumps.

Aquaculture certainly has its place and while Java is an example where it has gone wrong there are good examples: as a starving student in NZ, I couldnt afford to eat chicken, but I could afford to stuff my face with delicious, live "farmed" green lipped mussles. These mussles are now available worldwide.

 

[Hank49]

I know what you are saying Hank, but aquaculture is not always as "green" as it sounds. Anyone who has flown over the north coast of Java has seen the hundreds of square miles of once productive mangroves, turned into abandoned shrimp farms that are the equivalent of ecological toxic waste dumps.

Aquaculture certainly has its place and while Java is an example where it has gone wrong there are good examples: as a starving student in NZ, I couldnt afford to eat chicken, but I could afford to stuff my face with delicious, live "farmed" green lipped mussles. These mussles are now available worldwide.

You're absolutely right Mark. There were "slash and burn" style farms in SE Asia. However, terrestrial farming destroys either forest or grassy plains to make way for culture of soy beans or corn to be fed to beef, pigs or chickens. And that land is fast disapperaing and becoming subdivisions, shopping malls...I see it every time I go back home.
Aquaculture gets a lot of bad press and some is deserved. There are growing pains in every successful industry. But successful, sustainable aquaculture will do more for protecting the fishes of the sea than Greenpeace, Friends of Nature or any other of the "conservation" groups. It's just business. When we can grow fish and other marine species cheaper than it costs fishing boats....the fish in sea will be for sportsmen, not trawlers.
Also, regarding mangroves. There were some destoyed back in the early 80s for shrimp farms but they were the first to fail as it was quickly learned that mangrove soil is too acidic for shrimp culture.

 

[drbill]

Hank49- By killing off the large ones, you are failing to recognize that the reproductive potential of the large fish is usually so much greater than that of the small fish that will need to "grow up" to take their place. This is why many ecologists and some resource "managers" are suggesting both a minimum and a maximum take size.

Dr. Bill

 

[Hank49]

Hank49- By killing off the large ones, you are failing to recognize that the reproductive potential of the large fish is usually so much greater than that of the small fish that will need to "grow up" to take their place. This is why many ecologists and some resource "managers" are suggesting both a minimum and a maximum take size.

Dr. Bill

HI Dr. Bill, I was referring more to the terminal growth phase that many species reach. They eat, take up space but don't grow. I agree it's a delicate balance but one TG fish will be quickly replaced by numerous adults capable of breeding. The key is to maintain numbers of breeding adults capable of regenerating the schools, herds, flocks...best controlled by seasonal hunting.

 

[scubapro5]

I applaud:yelclap: everyone for their feedback and not getting into arguements:boxing_sm.

I like the idea of aquaculture and hope with time things will improve to make it safer and somehow control the waste and other problems assocated with the farming of sealife.

I wish one day the commercial fishing industry would be like the forest industry where they replant 10 trees for every one they cut down. If the commercials had to replinish what they take thru hatcheries like what is done with the WSB here in California things would be alot better.

Its nice to read and learn from you others that know so much more than I do about the ocean and its good to help others understand what right and wrong without bashing them.

 

[Mako Mark]

You're absolutely right Mark. There were "slash and burn" style farms in SE Asia.

(snip)

regarding mangroves. There were some destoyed back in the early 80s for shrimp farms but they were the first to fail as it was quickly learned that mangrove soil is too acidic for shrimp culture.

Yeah, I think these are the ones that are still toxic. There is an interesting concept of farming mangroves in situ. Instead of cutting them out and using the "tidal soil", you leave them in place and farm the ecosystem rather than an individual species, I cant remember where they were doing it though, but it was very effective and very sustainable.

This is why many ecologists and some resource "managers" are suggesting both a minimum and a maximum take size.

When we can grow fish and other marine species cheaper than it costs fishing boats....the fish in sea will be for sportsmen, not trawlers.

YOu hit the nail on the head Hank, the only way to create sustainable management of ANY resource is to find a way to make it more profitable than exploitative resource management. Stock management techniques applied to agriculture could be applied to fish stocks, in fact the salmon industry is one that is leading this field I believe. Look at all the dams they are pulling down in the PNW.

There is an interesting discussion about this type of management on this thread regarding Tridacnia
http://www.scubaboard.com/t78194-.html