Once a DM always liable

[Aquanaut4ata]

One point that hasn't really been mentioned yet are good samaritan laws....most states have them...and they are designed to protect those who are trained, attempt to help, but are unable to do so. If you are a DM, and someone is sinking to the bottom, you attempt rescue, but say you get to your nitrox MOD and can no longer pursue, you have made a "reasonable effort" and should be protected in this way.

 

[Robert Thompson]

As a professional(DM, Instructor) you are supposed to be a leader within the diving community. Are you all saying that if something went bad on a dive trip that you would not be one of the first to react to the issue. I am willing to bet that most of you would absolutely help, putting yourself in harms way liability wise. And if your shaking your head right now saying no, then shame on you, thats what you signed up for. Yes I know this is where I have ten peaple post what an idiot I am. go ahead.

 

[DiveGolfSki]

I am so HAPPY-HAPPY-HAPPY I don't live in the US!

-We don't have the death penalty, and
-we don't have a legal system that lets hungry lawyers molest people's lives with unrightful lawsuits and fantasy claims for mistakes their clients actually brought on themselves just by being STUPID!

Yup and all of Europe probably supported John Edwards (with Kerry) who made a fortune suing OB/GYN up and down the east coast. However, I heard that most of these ultra-liberals (the kind that supports trial lawyers) have made could on their threat to move to Europe (e.g., all of Hollywood, most of song artists, etc.).

Enough of the trolling and let's keep this within what is a DM liability.

 

[DiveGolfSki]

only in america! you hear about that case wherein a robber sued the owner of the house he was trying to rob? he apparently fell thru a glass roof and fell to the floor and injured himself. he won the suit! is this an urban legend or did this actually happen? if it did then its sooo messed up!!

Only in the Philippines! You hear about the President of the National Lottery (Sweepstakes) winning the Lottery. Or better yet, the President of the Philippines can have a conversation about the status of the elections and yet not be impeached ("Hello Garci") :05:

Let's keep this thread away from the U.S. tort litigation bashing.

 

[Christi]

If you were a billionair would you walk around with thousand dollar bills falling out of your pockets?

You don't NEED to shout it to the world either! Well, some do, it would seem, I can think of no other reason for most of the DMs out there.

After all I AM an AOW, you must be to move on to DM, so i'm not lieing in showing a diveop my AOW card, If they asked I would ( well,ok, might) tell them of higher ratings but nobody ever asks - they just want to make sure you're qualified for a given dive.

I didn't say shout it to the world either As I said, I don't go out of my way to let people know my level, but if it comes up I am going to be forthcoming with the info.

But, I also agree with you on the second part of that comment...I brought it up in another post as well... "...Well, some do, it would seem, I can think of no other reason for most of the DMs out there. " These are the ones I consider dangerous

 

[TorontoDive]

I've met divers who are actually qualified DM or higher but who always show just the rescue card when on dive trips. It's more to avoid being buddied up with the novice diver because the operation doesn't have their own DM to look after them, but it seems like a way to avoid professional liability too - just don't tell anyone you're a DM.

Heck, that's a great point right there!!! It would be greatly unfair to pay the full charter fee and then be expected to babysit the the novice air hog without some kind of compensation. (yeah, I know I sound selfish but then, it's really the Dive op's responsibility to provide enough DMs)

 

[RonFrank]

This sounds like fraud to me. If there was an incident that was investigated and they start punching numbers in the system and find she was really a pro diver she could sink herself, although I could be totaly off base.

She simply does not inform places she is diving with on vacation that she is an instructor. That is hardly fraud? If you believe it is, I'd like to hear why?

Why should any diving professional be held liable for divers when they are not instructing? She maybe held somewhat accountable if HER divebuddy has issues UW, and she does not do everything reasonable within her power to help.

It would be interesting to learn the statistics about lawsuits involving dive professionals. Scubaboard members tend to put things under a magnifying glass, but I'm betting that that number of lawsuits against dive pros vs. accidents is rather low.

 

[michaelp68]

Interesting thread.

I'm a personal injury attorney/trial lawyer in Connecticut.

My answers to some of the issues raised are:

1. If you are a Divemaster and a diver is injured somewhere in your vicinity, there is a greater chance that you will be sued than if you are not a Divemaster. Remember that being sued and being liable are 2 different things.

2. As already stated by Andy, several times, in order for you to be found liable, the person bringing the case must prove that you owed a legal duty of care, you violated the standard of care and that the violation caused the injuries. If someone makes a blanket statement to you that you will automatically be liable for injuries if you are a Divemaster, I say bull. That's simply not true, and it's not a correct statement of general tort law in the U.S. The correct answer is that you may be liable and you may not, depending on the facts applied to the elements stated above and repeatedly stated by Andy.

3. Even if you did nothing wrong and even if you will not be liable, it still stinks to be sued. It costs money, time and stress. So perhaps carrying insurance is a good idea so that you have it to cover: 1) the costs of defending yourself even if you did nothing wrong; and 2) any liability found against you in the event you did screw-up.

4. I understand divers not presenting certain cards either: 1) to fly under the radar in the event of an incident and litigation; and/or 2) to fly under the radar so that on vacation, they may enjoy their dives without being called upon to 'lend a hand' and 'work' during the dives. Just bear in mind that while this has the chance of helping you avoid being 'discovered' as a professional for litigation purposes, it certainly is no guarantee. Competent attorneys will probably find out about your true certification level anyway.

5. Regardless of training, if one of us sees another diver having a problem, we're probably going to do what we feel we're able to do to help. It's simply the right thing to do. In the event the diver-victim or diver-victim's family pursues a case against you as a diving professional, you'll be happy you have the insurance to take care of the lawsuit, pay the costs to defend you and pay any liability if it exists.

6. As I believe a couple people asked, I'm also curious about how many legal claims are brought every year by diver-victims (or their families) and what the outcomes of these cases are. I have not seen anything on this in my readings.

I'm sure I didn't answer every question or address every issue, but I hope this helps a bit.

I don't know for sure, but I bet that these issues are discussed in the SB Instructor Forum which you need to be a professional diver to access. It's just that recreational divers considering becoming professional do not yet have access to all of those discussions in that Forum. Perhaps I'm wrong about that, but if I'm correct, it seems that access to those discussions might prove quite helpful to non-professional divers, especially those who are considering becoming professionals.

Michael

 

[RonFrank]

I am so HAPPY-HAPPY-HAPPY I don't live in the US!

-We don't have the death penalty, and
-we don't have a legal system that lets hungry lawyers molest people's lives with unrightful lawsuits and fantasy claims for mistakes their clients actually brought on themselves just by being STUPID!

Norway has a population of maybe 4.5 million. Denver has a population of 2.3million, and is the 20 largest city in the US.

California does NOT have the death penalty, and has a popultion of 33 million people, or is over 6 times the population of Norway. Many states do NOT support the death penalty, and many do.

Norway's legal system is not all that different from the States. Our legal system does not LET Lawyers molest people, but unfortunately it does happen. Generally the lawyers are molesting insurance companies, or large corporations, not individuals.

 

[diverbrian]

Heck, that's a great point right there!!! It would be greatly unfair to pay the full charter fee and then be expected to babysit the the novice air hog without some kind of compensation. (yeah, I know I sound selfish but then, it's really the Dive op's responsibility to provide enough DMs)

Another topic, but if you are on a six-pack in the Great Lakes (or most boats up here) there typically is NO in-water DM. If you happen to get on a Captain's Charter, you get buddied with whoever else showed up unless you bring your own buddy.

This is actually understood quite well that it is the diver's responsibility to provide a competent diver, not the charter's responsibility to provide a babysitter.