Optimal Pony Bottle Size for Failure at 100ft?

[JonnieB]

I mean, it seems that way. But the problem is when they do as they trained and try to switch to the pony regulator, but it's nowhere to be found. Likewise, the other regulator that they should have been breathing is going to be ... where? This is not a long hose setup so it won't be clipped off somewhere predictable or hanging on a necklace, the reason they're not breathing it is that they messed something up earlier and it might as well be dangling somewhere behind them. Panic in 3, 2, 1, ...

It sounds to me the person in your example shouldn't be scuba diving.

 

[SlugLife]

But the problem is when they do as they trained and try to switch to the pony regulator, but it's nowhere to be found.

The premise is the pony bottle somehow increases danger over some standard configuration (single tank, 1 first, 2 second stages). Clearly, these types of incidents happen (as evidenced by a fairly active recent thread on ScubaBoard.), and worth examining so people don't make those mistakes. But those mistakes are also easily remedied. For example, practicing regulator switching and properly retaining your regulators.

There are plenty of ways to misuse a pony bottle. For example, thinking you can dive deeper or more dangerously, thinking a spare air is enough to get you to the surface, or using one as a dive-extender. The proof of the danger of pony bottles can't be to cite people who aren't using one properly. That would be like blaming scuba for someone untrained using scuba equipment in a pool and drowning. "Scuba is dangerous!" I mean kinda, but what really killed them was the lack of training.

Is SideMount dangerous? To someone completely untrained and unpracticed, sure it increases danger. But once you pass a basic competency level, it's generally safer. We have regulator switching, slinging tanks, and managing gas in multiple tanks. (My pony setup is literally sidemount, with one tank smaller)

This is not a long hose setup so it won't be clipped off somewhere predictable or hanging on a necklace

...because we have to assume some level of incompetency, lack of practice, alertness, or training to create a scenario where a pony bottle would create danger wouldn't exist without the pony bottle.

As soon as competency is assumed, the pony bottle is safer in almost every scenario.

 

[happy-diver]

One bit slips onto the bc cam band the other bit double hose clamped to the AUXILIARY bottle
Loosen your cam buckle, and lift the rig from one bottle to the other, when swapping out tanks

No clips pins buttons wires knobs or any of that other malarkey Aux slides in and Aux slides out

 

[jborg]

The premise is the pony bottle somehow increases danger over some standard configuration (single tank, 1 first, 2 second stages).

It creates a space for mistakes to happen. Mistakes which, in the worst case, may lead to a serious accident. Whether the sum of added and removed risk is positive or negative I can't say and obviously depends on the specifics of the diver, the setup, and the circumstances.

You can assume the diver is competent, trained and does not make mistakes, but I don't think that's what reality looks like. Telling someone who is not trained in handling multiple tanks that a pony is no biggie, just strap it to your back and you've got redundancy, more safety, easy-peasy, is in my opinion not the best advice.

Actual manifolded doubles, or even a slung AL80, seems to leave less opportunity for fatal ****ups even for the untrained.

 

[lostsheep]

Yup I only got two buttons on the bc, they really need a third, just like my transmission, wouldn’t it be nice to have neutral button??

Seriously though, if you want to ascend with little air use, it is far better to press the up button, rest and conserve air , compared to kicking and placing those large muscles into an oxygen consuming state. Especially for the initial part of the ascent where gas expansion is relatively slow and gas consumption is highest.

Not much different than those fanatics who proclaim it is essential to maintain a horizontal position and good trim when ascending; they’re positively bouyant as well when coming up.

Why would I kick up again? I assume we’re talking OC here.

FWIW, I’m one of those fanatics who ascends horizontal and I’m only positively buoyant for part of my breathing cycle.

 

[NW Dive Dawg]

One bit slips onto the bc cam band the other bit double hose clamped to the AUXILIARY bottle
Loosen your cam buckle, and lift the rig from one bottle to the other, when swapping out tanks

View attachment 815814

No clips pins buttons wires knobs or any of that other malarkey Aux slides in and Aux slides out

So just curious......what keeps the pony from just sliding out of that slot rail when you are in a head down, fully inverted dive?

 

[L13]

...because we have to assume some level of incompetency, lack of practice, alertness, or training to create a scenario where a pony bottle would create danger wouldn't exist without the pony bottle.

As soon as competency is assumed, the pony bottle is safer in almost every scenario.

And, if similar incompetence is assumed for the alternatives, they are similarly bad.

If we assume that "doing it right" solves the problem, then we need to give credit for similar competence at doing the alternative correctly before we judge it.

 

[34109411]

I mean, it seems that way. But the problem is when they do as they trained and try to switch to the pony regulator, but it's nowhere to be found. Likewise, the other regulator that they should have been breathing is going to be ... where? This is not a long hose setup so it won't be clipped off somewhere predictable or hanging on a necklace, the reason they're not breathing it is that they messed something up earlier and it might as well be dangling somewhere behind them. Panic in 3, 2, 1, ...

Hello.

ok i will briefly give you a bit about my background. So after 175 dives ish, i complete about 10 solo dive last summer by myself. Didnt took any training for that specific matter. (yet but i will next summer).

I am diving with a 80 CF in my back and slung a 30 CF tank under my left arm (the pony). The reg is snug along the pony it s really easy to take it out to use it for my self or event if i meet someone underwater to give it to them.

So basically regarding the positioning of the piney bottle you have few options... slung under you arm, backmounted or some people will usée like a 19 cf across there chess. It's all about what's suitable for you. You obviously need to know how deep you're gonna go to plan what size of pony you should carry.

Don't forget most important thing is training with a proper training you could dive safely. Once your training is done continue training ! Dive, read, analyze what could be the best options to make you a better diver. Also know your gear.

So there is no specific problem using a pony as long as you know and understand how to use in a safety manner !

 

[SlugLife]

And, if similar incompetence is assumed for the alternatives, they are similarly bad.

If we assume that "doing it right" solves the problem, then we need to give credit for similar competence at doing the alternative correctly before we judge it.

Exactly. Assuming equal levels of competence, mistakes, training, etc is required for an apples-to-apples comparison.

The "pony bottles are dangerous" arguments I've seen so far, are relying heavily on the "incompetent" (untrained, no practice, dangling regs, etc) diver, with little application to a diver with any degree of practice or training. Find me a SideMount diver who would fail to switch regulators, and you've found someone who isn't a SM diver. If someone with zero scuba training, takes scuba equipment into a pool and drowns, we generally don't say "see, Scuba is dangerous, and people shouldn't do it" but rather "Scuba diving without training is dangerous."

 

[jborg]

Assuming equal levels of competence, mistakes, training, etc is required for an apples-to-apples comparison.

Would you say that pony bottle-using divers generally get training in handling their pony bottle, to the same extent that a doubles diver or sidemount diver would typically have with their kit? We'd have to assume that for the comparison to be apples-to-apples, right?

I'm seeing a lot of (paraphrased) "pony bottles are no big deal, no downsides, just grab one and go diving" which implies essentially zero training in their use. And I'm not aware of a pony bottle speciality card, even from PADI... However, divers diving doubles or sidemount have generally put some time into thinking about their configuration and training with it, formally or informally.