Out of Air on Descent

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Them, people make mistakes. Divers make them, and boat crew make them. If I am going to end up in the water with my air turned off, I would prefer that it be my own error, rather than someone else's. I have a set of procedures designed to ensure that I don't end up in the water that way by my own error, but it is dependent on the sequence of checks -- if someone messes with my valve (and especially if I don't realize it) that's not taken into account in my pre-dive procedures.
 
Them, I am with you on this, in fact I am going to call BS on several of the posts in this thread. A dive master is not supposed to check a students valve to see if it is on ? BS ! I was standing on the dive platform and the captain turned my air off ? BS ! I was on the dive platform and the dive master turned my air off? BS ! I have been involved twice with divers splashing in with their air off one was a dive master the other an instructor the cause was the same both times a leaky o ring discovered after their gear was together and since it was just a training dive they turned their tank off to conserve air and then forgot to turn it back on they knew what had happened and admitted it, they did not try to blame it on someone else since no one else had touched their equipment. How many turns does it take to turn a valve off that is fully open( -1/4 turn)? Nothing is foolproof but I think some of you are kidding yourself. I will continue to check valves before students get in the water and my buddies too,( not a cave diver or wreck diver so no lectures needed about you gear OK ) it is much easier to deal with an out of air situation out of the water than in the water. I don't think there has ever been a class that I did not adjust at least one students valve to the open position -1/4 turn and I always look them in the eye and tell them they did not have their air on properly.
 
Them, I am with you on this, in fact I am going to call BS on several of the posts in this thread. A dive master is not supposed to check a students valve to see if it is on ? BS ! I was standing on the dive platform and the captain turned my air off ? BS ! I was on the dive platform and the dive master turned my air off? BS ! I have been involved twice with divers splashing in with their air off one was a dive master the other an instructor the cause was the same both times a leaky o ring discovered after their gear was together and since it was just a training dive they turned their tank off to conserve air and then forgot to turn it back on they knew what had happened and admitted it, they did not try to blame it on someone else since no one else had touched their equipment. How many turns does it take to turn a valve off that is fully open( -1/4 turn)? Nothing is foolproof but I think some of you are kidding yourself. I will continue to check valves before students get in the water and my buddies too,( not a cave diver or wreck diver so no lectures needed about you gear OK ) it is much easier to deal with an out of air situation out of the water than in the water. I don't think there has ever been a class that I did not adjust at least one students valve to the open position -1/4 turn and I always look them in the eye and tell them they did not have their air on properly.

A need to call BS on what? I am not sure if we have a reading comprehension problem here? No one (except the above referenced post) is talking about a class or students. What an instructor and/or instructor's assistant does in a class is totally different than what someone does on a charter. I HAVE had my gas turned off by a helpful dive"master" before, but I caught it before I stepped in (by doing my pre-dive check).
 
Them, I am with you on this, in fact I am going to call BS on several of the posts in this thread. A dive master is not supposed to check a students valve to see if it is on ? BS ! I was standing on the dive platform and the captain turned my air off ? BS ! I was on the dive platform and the dive master turned my air off? BS ! I have been involved twice with divers splashing in with their air off one was a dive master the other an instructor the cause was the same both times a leaky o ring discovered after their gear was together and since it was just a training dive they turned their tank off to conserve air and then forgot to turn it back on they knew what had happened and admitted it, they did not try to blame it on someone else since no one else had touched their equipment. How many turns does it take to turn a valve off that is fully open( -1/4 turn)? Nothing is foolproof but I think some of you are kidding yourself. I will continue to check valves before students get in the water and my buddies too,( not a cave diver or wreck diver so no lectures needed about you gear OK ) it is much easier to deal with an out of air situation out of the water than in the water. I don't think there has ever been a class that I did not adjust at least one students valve to the open position -1/4 turn and I always look them in the eye and tell them they did not have their air on properly.

You can do what you want in a class ... with your students. Classes are an artificial environment, and there's lots of DM's and instructors out there who like to treat their students like imbeciles who are incapable of self-responsibility. That's your choice, since it's your class. I prefer to train mine to take responsibility for their own safety, and teach them how to establish a routine that includes multiple checks prior to beginning the dive.

But if we're on a boat together and you touch my valve without my permission, we're going to be having a very serious discussion ... and you won't like what I have to say.

I have had someone turn my air off before. It was an instructor. She was not doing a class, and didn't check with me first. To this day, I won't again dive with her, because to this day she still won't admit that what she did was wrong.

It was ... and it could very well have been fatal. People make mistakes ... ALL people make mistakes. I'm willing to live and die by mine ... I'm not willing to trust my life to yours.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I'm a bit taken aback by this.

1) Are you (or whatever diver receives this treatment) are using non-standard gear? So what looks open for you looks closed for 99% of the gear they see?

2) It is a way of griefing you that won't come back at them? ("I didn't change his valve! I thought it was closed but he jumped in before I could do anything! Honest!" Says the passive-aggressive crew member.)

3) Is it ever a smoke screen? As in the diver knows they made a mistake but doesn't want to look like an idiot in front of other divers so "somebody else did it" is the story they stick to?

4) Do you think the crew members sometimes just have honest homicidal intent?

5) Something else entirely?

It seems like a dangerous habit that the dive boat operators who want to avoid the hassle of bringing back dead (or angry) divers would train against. What am I missing?[/QUOTE
So far I have not had the urge to turn someones air off, maybe that comes later. I still think "Them " has some good points. Are you saying that a member of the dive crew is deliberately turning off a divers air just for grins and maybe get to be a hero, or that they just forgot how a valve works?

The only time I have seen someone turn someones air off is after an o ring popped and even then it was on land.

Bob I am curious why she turned your air off, was she trying to get rid of you, just bored looking for some excitement or what? I am serious I just have not seen people messing with other peoples stuff.
 
Completely ignoring entendres here, I don't think that's reasonable.

His equipment is vital to your safety. You aren't (just) checking for his benefit. If the best check involves touching, you touch.

Or maybe I'm violating some diver code that wasn't explained in my OW class. Either way I wouldn't hesitate to touch a buddy's gear as park of the pre-dive check, whether I had just met them or was married to them.

I don't want anybody touching my gear. I used to dive in a unique configuration and I once had a liveaboard captain turn my air off inadvertently. From that point on, whenever someone touched my gear, I ended up starting over with the gearing up process. I finally changed my set up (reluctantly as it worked really well for me) and now I get a lot less "help and advice".
 
Bob I am curious why she turned your air off, was she trying to get rid of you, just bored looking for some excitement or what? I am serious I just have not seen people messing with other peoples stuff.

She thought it was all a big joke ... apparently her and her friends do stuff like that to each other. The difference is, they know to expect it and look for it. I didn't ... nor do I see such an action as in any way funny ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
She thought it was all a big joke ... apparently her and her friends do stuff like that to each other. The difference is, they know to expect it and look for it. I didn't ... nor do I see such an action as in any way funny ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I agree with your reaction there. 100% I'd be pissed. But it wouldn't have anything to do with valves.

I work at the same company as someone - not willingly and I'm counting the days/working to shorten the time until he gets fired - that was driving down the street in front of our offices and saw a group of our coworkers (not me, I watched from my car) standing outside talking. He decided it would be funny to swerve his car towards the group as though to hit them. Nobody was hurt but I was livid. When I confronted him over it of course it was all a joke and he though I was just being an a-hole.... no, he was for taking an action that could easily have resulted in a Bad Day for a lot of people, for his own momentary amusement.

That's what I would've been pissed about in your scenario, the attitude.

But here's what it comes down to for me, and forgive the analogy but it's what I know....

In aviation there are good reasons why airplane fuel tanks should be kept full. At least in theory an empty tank can have dew form inside. The water accumulates in the tank and if not removed can cause an engine failure in flight. Possible outcome: death for all aboard and perhaps people on the ground too. Bad in a way divers rarely need to worry about.

Touching aircraft that don't belong to you is fairly common. E.g. in a common hangar you might need to push another plane around to get yours out. You might move another plane if you saw stained rings under it too...that can indicate a fuel leak (the rings are dye left behind after the gasoline evaporates) so moving the plane a few feet to see if new rings form could possibly prevent a hangar fire. This isn't something anyone is cavalier about but it happens. If your plane and mine are parked in the same hangar, I assume you will end up touching mine and I'll end up dealing with yours somehow too.

In touching/moving a plane it is entirely possible that an attentive person would notice that the fuel tanks were nearly empty (many planes have a simple clear sight glass tube attached to the fuel tank so you can easily see level) but nobody I know would ever "correct" that without explicit instructions from the plane owner or a pilot preparing to fly that plane. Why? Many planes are not capable of flying both full cargo/passenger load and full fuel in all phases of flight. In some cases (e.g. Some acro planes) it may not be able to carry a normal pilot and a full tank of fuel and do some maneuvers. At full weight the plane may be limited to +4g, at some lower weight +6g, and if the pilot flies a 6g maneuver with extra weight his wings could collapse...again, death for all aboard and more on the ground is possible. It's like a rural gate...you leave it in whatever position you found it in even if you think you know better. All of that said, if someone did...it really wouldn't be a safety issue.

Likewise, if I call the right number and ask for someone to come out and fuel my plane (which I don't actually have by the way), they will happily push it out of the hangar, fuel it, and put it back in the hangar for me without my presence or real knowledge of what they did. They could be incompetent and totally mess up, or they could be great.

If an in-flight incident were to occur from any fueling (requested or not), it would be 100%, without apportionment or limitation, the pilot's fault. OK, maybe not if a fuel sample revealed a refinery issue or something, but normal conditions. It doesn't matter how the fuel got there, who touched the plane, what they did, why they shouldn't have, or anything else. The pilot is responsible for pre-flight checks and planning, responsible for the safety of that flight from before she is walking towards the plane until she is done tying down after the flight. It was her responsibility to recognize the unsafe condition and correct it, e.g. by burning off or draining off the extra fuel before engaging in high g maneuvers, or realizing that the fuel caps were not re-installed, or that the 100ll you requested was put in another plane and you got jet A instead.

I know it's a hard-ass position but I don't see how a diver is really any different. Yes, the potential consequences of failure are lower, but not to the diver. The fact that someone touches your gear, turns off valves, etc. is totally irrelevant to the safety of your dive. You are responsible for ensuring your gear works, and is in the correct configuration for your planned dive, before you need it. If that doesn't happen, you messed up. It isn't the DM or the captain or another diver that caused a problem, it's you for failing to do your checks . From the time you decide to enter the water, until you are back on the boat, it's up to you to exercise your judgment and utilize your training to make the dive safe. That means verifying that your air is turned on, your BC is attached to you somehow, your mask isn't full of leaches, your fins aren't made of papier mache, etc.

The only caveats I can think of at the moment are sabotage and changes made after you have started your dive (which means after you have done your pre-dive checks). In other words, things a reasonable person would consider malicious interference rather than, well, normal.

So going back to the original scenario of a husband and wife buddy team with many dives completed, the husband not wanting his wife to touch his gear before a dive doesn't make much sense to me. Why? Because he is still responsible for checking himself whether she touches anything or not, so it doesn't add any workload. On the other hand, assuming they more or less like each other, touching may have benefits. It is possible that a quick check by the wife...or a quick turn of the valve she is today conditioned to avoid touching, could have prevented or ended this incident.

Of course I don't know either person. Maybe she (the OP, hi OP :)) is a practical joker who shouldn't be trusted around valves...I don't get that impression from the post but what do I know? Expecting sabotage from your wife just sounds paranoid to me. Paranoid in a bad way I mean. If your marriage is solid enough to go diving together anyway.

I understand that personal boundaries are personal and I can respect that on a human level, but those boundaries are more about psychology than safety.
 
I'm a bit taken aback by this.

...

"As long as you can breathe underwater, everything is fine." Verifying that your air is on is a core principle of every responsible diver.
I believe checking one's air is the most important step before entering the water. This is what every prudent diver should do as well as include it in the buddy checks. So after my buddy and I verified the valve is open and the regs are working, I am good to go. If after that someone manipulates my valve behind my head, this renders all the previous checks useless as I cannot be sure that my air is still turned on (so I cannot be sure to be able to breathe when I submerge). So this pratice is to be discouraged IMO.
If the crew and/or dive staff wants to verify for themselves that their divers have their air on, they are welcome to be part of my checks and/or my buddy checks. But when the dive team concluded, that everything is working fine and the diver is standing on the plattform just about to enter the water, noone should go for the valves (as mistakes can easily happen). Or as TSandM put it "And heaven help the person who touches my tank valve or valves, buddy or no . . . unless I ask them to."


Of course, I don't expect any crew member to intentionally turn of a valve. But it's very easy to turn the knob in the wrong direction in hectic situation when the crew wants to get the divers in the water fast. I've seen dive professionals turn the valve in the wrong directions multiple time. I sometimes initially mix this up as well when not thinking about it. Let alone the boat crew that you often find in Asia or Africa which is often some relatives or friends of the boat's owner who are usually very helpful and friendly but don't know anything about dive equipment themselves.


EDIT
I know it's a hard-ass position but I don't see how a diver is really any different. Yes, the potential consequences of failure are lower, but not to the diver. The fact that someone touches your gear, turns off valves, etc. is totally irrelevant to the safety of your dive. You are responsible for ensuring your gear works, and is in the correct configuration for your planned dive, before you need it. If that doesn't happen, you messed up. It isn't the DM or the captain or another diver that caused a problem, it's you for failing to do your checks . From the time you decide to enter the water, until you are back on the boat, it's up to you to exercise your judgment and utilize your training to make the dive safe. That means verifying that your air is turned on, your BC is attached to you somehow, your mask isn't full of leaches, your fins aren't made of papier mache, etc.

I just read this and I agree. But this is exactly why I don't want a crew member touch my gear after the checks. My buddy and I verified that everything is working, so I am ready to go while accepting the possible consequences if we messed up. If the crew turns the valve (with the best intentions) after this, it makes my check useless. So now I have the options to blindly trust in the crew not having messed it up or move back to start.
 
I have been on diveboats where the divemaster helps the geared up diver to the platform before they jump in. Keeping them steady in rough seas, and they always make sure the valve is on before sending them on their way. Valve drills arent mentioned in class with a single valve but they should be. With an h valve and dual 1st stages or doubles it definetely is. Divers shopuld know that they can lift the bottom of the tank up with their left hand and reach the valve with their right.[with a standard valve of course] and to remember which way is on when the valve is behind you, just pretend your on a motorcycle and to throttle up is the same as turning on your air. I know coff [clockwise off] etc etc but to me remembering to lift the tank with left hand and trottle up with the right hand was more instant without even thinking witch way is counter clockwise behind my head in a rush. Throttleup folks before you jump and breathe.
 
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