OW class question

[Eric Sedletzky]

This last recession really changed a lot of stuff for a lot of people. Back when things were supposedly "good" (fake economy) people had more disposable income to buy toys, computers, send themselves on lavish dive vacations, etc.
Now a lot of those people are facing a new reality, being poor as to compared what they were used to, or at least forced to live within their means which could correlate to not as much money for hobbies.
Way back before diving became gear intensive divers were able to get wet for a fraction of what it takes now.
Just look at the gear requirements these days: BCD, spg, alternate second stage, computer, more expensive convoluted snorkels, etc.
Back in the day they didn't have any of this stuff so it was cheaper to get into diving.
So, not only are people not as well off as pre recession, but they are required to buy/use more stuff now just to get certified.
No wonder less people are able to get into diving.
Where I live a lot of people have turned to freediving because of the simplicity and the value.

 

[T.C.]

When I was in that situation, instead of going on ultimate dive trips, I refocused my energy into seeking better qualifications for myself, so that I could earn a better living, one in which I would not have to compromise safety in pursuing the hobbies I so much love, because I needed to scrimp money for it.

Oh, I get it! People don't have all the gear and training you have because they don’t try hard enough at work or school, or aren’t smart enough! Thanks for the view from the elite. You might want to stay away from sharp objects; lest they pop your ego.

With the economy and jobs how they are, many people do not have the time to seek better qualifications or a better job- assuming said job even exists.

Some people are not fortunate enough to be able to buy the great gear you have; and teaching them tables as a backup can help them if their computer fails, yet they still want to dive that day.

Well, I'm not there yet. I dove for many years on recreational level, knowing I had the skills and the mentality to go beyond, into full trimix and cave diving, and I wanted it badly, it was years of dreaming about those crystal clear waters and beauty of caves, what I didn't have then, was the money to buy the gear and training necessary to pursue my dreams safely. I waited until I could not only buy gear and training, but also be able to do those dives regularly so my skills would not deteriorate.

Thanks. Are you done bragging about how good you are, how great your gear is, and how awesome your job is that you can dive so much? It's really getting annoying.

Well if they can afford to rent a computer for the first two days, and the computer goes on the blink the second day, they can return it and rent a new one for the third day. So the expense argument is specious.

BS.

They would still lose the rest of that full day of diving. Teaching tables results in them being able to compute where they stand, and being able to continue to dive, for the remainer of that day.

Most people like to get the most out of their trip. If their computer goes down during a dive day, it really sucks to sit on the beach while your friends have all the fun. Teaching tables avoids that event.

A number of examples have been given to you where dive tables would not be useful for a second dive where a dive computer failed after the first dive. Because dive computers extend allowable bottom time with multi-level diving, I submit that most dives in vacation spots exceed what the tables would allow with a square profile.

So??? Many examples exist where tables CAN allow you to continue to dive. I have done it myself. I have had a computer fail on vacation and was able to dive the rest of the day because I knew how to use tables.

So the usefulness of the tables on this score (as a back-up) is limited to: (1) the remainder of the day that the computer fails (because you can rent one for the next day) (2) provided the first dive was a square profile (3) and provided you know your maximum depth for that first dive and (4) provided you have a means of determining in advance of diving the maximum depth for your subsequent dives that day.

2. No...you compute it like a square profile, but it is NOT REQUIRED to be.
3. Info is easy to get from your analog depth gauge.
4. It's called a dive briefing.

Second, what about a diver who can't afford one and just wants to do simple dives? Should they be forced to buy one, lest they not be able to dive?

Eric makes a good point. By requiring more and more gear, dive agencies are not bringing in more people (the ultimate goal of dropping tables- to shorten the class and make it easier to attract people), they're forcing them out after their OW training.

This issue reminds me of the debate on another forum on the issue of the Army dropping bayonet training. Why would the Army drop such traditional training?

FYI, the Army never dropped bayonet training. We keep it because the training in itself has value, value beyond just learning to fight with one.

Same reason would apply for teaching tables. It produces a diver with more skills, more confidence.

It would be nice if we lived in a world where instructors had unlimited time to teach all that should be taught, but we don't.

So the solution is not to lengthen the training, but to lower the standard?

How long does it take to teach tables? An hour at most? It takes longer than this to read the manual on a computer and teach that. We're not talking about adding a day to OW training here.

 

[Pavao]

Wow.
How about leaving your frustrations on the door?

I don't know about you guys, but this enough for me.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Hi people been lurking awhile. Went through my OW pool classes I'm in MA so I am waiting to do the open water dives. But the more I think about it the more it bothers me. In the class they did not tech us dive charts. Did not show us one how to use one nothing. Just said listen to your computer.

Am I nuts for wanting to know how to use the charts and not just the computer? Thanks guys!

Sure, by all means, learn to use tables if that interests you. Using tables is like using a slide rule instead of a calculator. Using tables is like a sailor using a sextant instead of a GPS unit. These days, few sailors know how to use a sextant and instead just have a backup GPS on the boat. Similarly, divers who want to be prepared for contingencies and would rather not sit out the rest of the day until they can borrow a new computer and resume diving tomorrow can carry a backup computer ($250-$300) on their dives. But that's really the only penalty of your computer dying during a dive and not having carried a backup: you have to end the dive and sit out the next X hours before you can dive again. To some of us, shrugging our shoulders and coming back to dive another day is not a big hardship, especially given the low likelihood of computer failure in the first place.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

There is one way with tables to mimick what a computer does fairly easily. I hope I don't get flamed for this either and have somebody lay into me about how "unsafe" this is by going beyond what is the norm, but here goes.

Ricky B.,
you stated that you did a dive to 91 feet and the dive lasted 44 minutes.
If you were to do this with tables you would have to learn to depth average, which the DIR people do. They don't use computers. I remember you mentioning you were possibly interested in that path. I'm not advocating or condemning I'm just saying.
OK, so let's say I'm cruising along at the 60 foot range and come across a canyon that happens to dip down to the 91 feet. So I follow the contour down and back up and I'm only down at that 91 feet for a minute. With square profile tables you would have to do the dive as if 100 feet was the deepest depth and the whole dive revolves around that depth. But let's say you continue the dive and go up to 50 feet for 10 minutes, then 40 feet for 15 minutes, then you might see something cool and go back down to 70 feet for 5 minutes and so on. If you've been paying attention to your depth and time you will realize that you actually have been averaging lets say 65 feet, so with that in mind then 44 minutes easily fits into the average depth range. This is a very simplified version but at least it illustrates the point.
Combine that with always doing a series of stops at 30 feet 20 feet and 10 feet for safety and there you have your on-the-fly tables use.
If you go the GUE route you will learn this.
But again just to be clear I'm not DIR or GUE, but I think the simplicity of this is fantastic, it's right down my minimalist line of thinking.
If you get into diving Monterey and the North Coast you will soon realize that a computer is just one more thing to possibly lose and or get banged up. Around here you really don't need one. I lost a $400 dollar one off my kayak once and it really pissed me off. That's when one of my best buddies told me I really didn't need one and he showed me how he did it. It is 8 years later and I just now bought another simple computer to replace my old BT.
However on a multi day liveaboard a computer would be nice, but I think I would still jot down a quick paper profile in the galley between dives just to have a paper trail in case the stupid thing crapped out.

 

[jongles]

I'm going to keep it simple, fliperdr6 you are not nuts for wanting to learn the tables. If at some stage you want to start planning your own dive trips with a buddy its a very handy way of figuring out what sites you can explore on a given day. I think this is reason enough to be familiar with the tables.

 

[T.C.]

Sure, by all means, learn to use tables if that interests you. Using tables is like using a slide rule instead of a calculator. Using tables is like a sailor using a sextant instead of a GPS unit. These days, few sailors know how to use a sextant and instead just have a backup GPS on the boat.

No, not really. GPS replaced sextants because they are far easier and cheaper. Yet, you will find mechanical calculators as backups in many cases. I'd liken it to having a electronic chart. Most ships have these...yet they carry paper charts as backup because it makes sense.

Similarly, divers who want to be prepared for contingencies and would rather not sit out the rest of the day until they can borrow a new computer and resume diving tomorrow can carry a backup computer ($250-$300) on their dives. But that's really the only penalty of your computer dying during a dive and not having carried a backup: you have to end the dive and sit out the next X hours before you can dive again.

Why suffer when an acceptable backup exists? Is it because it is easier to buy more gear than train to standard?

And can we get away from the recommendation that divers invest more and more money when they don't need to? Most people can't afford another computer. Tables provide a cheap and effective backup.

To some of us, shrugging our shoulders and coming back to dive another day is not a big hardship, especially given the low likelihood of computer failure in the first place.

Some of us don't like to waste our money if we can avoid it- we'd rather keep diving.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Wouldn't it be nice to not have to end your day of diving?

Who said anything about ending your day of diving??

What about making the ascent from, say 60 feet down? Without a means to measure depth, most divers wil find it hard to make a safe ascent. I have to disagree with you; a recreational diver with one computer should carry a depth gauge as a backup for an emergency.

I disagree. Most divers are taught to ascend no fast than their smallest bubbles. You don't need a depth gauge to do that. I also don't know of very many recreational divers who have both a dive computer and a depth gauge. Even shops that rent gear don't usually rent out both. It seems even just having one depth gauge, in your opinion wouldn't be sufficient. I have seen depth gauges fail.

---------- Post added March 16th, 2014 at 04:56 PM ----------

Sometimes the "proper" response isn't always the best. We are experienced, conservative divers. Last Nov., we were doing a guided drift dive in Cozumel. That day there was a lot of current and we were zipping along. My husband and I have the same computers and keep the same profile. His computer quit. We completed the dive on my computer. There was no way we were going to ascend, do a safety stop, and come up somewhere behind the boat in that current.

The proper response would have been to let the guide know there was a problem and have the entire group ascend. You cannot guarantee separation won't occur in a situation like that. I don't know of any agency or instructor that will qualify diving someone else's computer under any circumstance, even that one. And it is unlikely that you would have come up behind the boat. The current would have continued to push you along with the group. Also, in any open water dive all divers should carry SMBs and in that case an SMB should have been deployed so the boat could also keep an eye on it and pick you up.

 

[T.C.]

Who said anything about ending your day of diving??

Without a backup computer, not knowing how to use tables means that you are done; you have no ability to compute your NDLs. You can't just pick up another computer until you've off-gassed completely. 12 hours should do it.

So, you can either compute your dives with tables, and continue on, or give up for the day. I favor continuing on with tables. Not teaching student divers to use this simple and inexpensive backup is setting them up for failure.

I disagree. Most divers are taught to ascend no fast than their smallest bubbles. You don't need a depth gauge to do that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is an outdated and unsafe standard for an ascent rate. Most agencies and the Navy teach 30 ft/min. PADI is the only one teaching 60 still. Even then, your slowest bubble are still faster than 60 ft/min.

I also don't know of very many recreational divers who have both a dive computer and a depth gauge. Even shops that rent gear don't usually rent out both.

Most recreational divers I know have gauges; and almost every rental gear I've seen has it. I realize that you do a very specialized diving, but that's not typical of the rest of the world, or the vast majority of divers.

It seems even just having one depth gauge, in your opinion wouldn't be sufficient. I have seen depth gauges fail.

Your depth gauge is a backup. Redundancy is good. Triple redundancy is unnecessary. You don't need two analog depth gauges. In fact, if you had two computers, I'd say then you wouldn't need a analog gauge.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I'm going to keep it simple, fliperdr6 you are not nuts for wanting to learn the tables. If at some stage you want to start planning your own dive trips with a buddy its a very handy way of figuring out what sites you can explore on a given day. I think this is reason enough to be familiar with the tables.

And the other reason is it's just plain good brain excercise. A little mental excercise never hurt anyone.
If I was getting certified these days I'd insist on learning the tables, but I like stuff like that.

For the same reason sales clerks should know how to count back change instead of relying on the register to tell them how much to give back.
Or how people should learn basic arithmatic including long division, addition, multiplication (and tables), subtraction. Where would we be if 1st graders were only taught to use a pocket calculator and had no idea how to work out math with paper and pencil?
And for another analogy, I personally like to drive a manual transmission car once in a while. Over 95% of the cars sold in the US now have automatic transmissions.
Most people learning how to drive these days have only drove an automatic. But there's something about driving a manual, shifting and using the clutch that's pretty fun, it's sporty.