mossym
Contributor
TDI is a more intensive course i think, they're gearing you up to do advanced nitrox and deeper diving, PADI are interested in getting you diving Nitrox only to rec levels, so the course may be easier..Simon L:
PADI AOW & Nitrox
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MHK
Guest
Simon L:
I'm curious when you say "controlled conditions" with an instructor what that means. You are still at depth, and more often then not, the instructor is also on depth using air, so I fail to see the "controlled conditions", since the instructor is presumably just as narced as you are. In the final analysis, in my view, the industry does a poor job teaching deep diving in the AOW class. You get one dive, usually it's done with the student kneeling down just beyond the required depth, doing a math problem. At the end of the day, it provides a "controlled" format for the instructor to CYA, but it does little to teach the student about what is involved in deep diving. Ask yourself what is more important skill, doing a math problem or doing an OOA drill to the surface from depth? So why isn't OOA's done in the deep diving portion?
Regards
mossym
Contributor
yup, i'm looking at TDI now for advanced nitrox
MHK:
I think you have a point that the skill done is not very applicable. On the other hand doesn't PADI have a deep diver course? I haven't done it but I would hazard a guess that OOA at depth would be covered on that. As I first mentioned I saw the 'speciality dives' as 'experience' dives - rather than full training in the speciality. I agree with Simon L that I found the demonstration of narcosis useful. As I really didn't feel very different to the best of my knowledge I could easily have been one of those people who say- "Narcosis? I don't get that!" - there are many of them around! At least having it conclusively proved made me realize in one lesson that it was a)real, b)It happened to me, and c)It is very subtle and sneaky
MHK
Guest
Kim:
Therein lies one of the many issues I have with the name game in the dive industry. Asking someone to take an additional class, as opposed to just teaching them initially, is exactly what drives me nuts about the dive industry. In the instant case, you have a class purporting to certify someone as an "advanced" diver, and you purport to train them in deep diving, but when you peel back the onion you see that there is little, if any, value associated with the underlying skills as they relate to the very concept that you are teaching. But yet, they'll offer you an additional "deep diving" continuing education class to supplement the very thing you should have just learned. That is frustrating to me on so many levels.
I note there is another thread going on right now discussing the PADI entry level "Scuba Diver" certification, and the resulting article from CDNN. In order to appreciate why many of us get frustrated is because it's a game of smoke and mirrors. All too often, you get students graduating from these poorly designed classes that actually believe that since they have a c-card that indicated that they are advanced divers, that they are in point of fact advanced divers. Most of us who have been around the industry for any period of time recognize that they are no such thing, but getting divers to arrive at that same conclusion, after they just spent good money to pay for the privledge of getting "advanced" certified is a unusual disconnect.
Anyway, just my thoughts since if you have the student at depth, why not make them do a skill that is directly related to the course you are certifying them rather then doing inapplicable skills and selling them con-ed..
Regards
I agree with you completely. There is no way that I considered myself an 'advanced' diver after AOW. 
The first time I actually learnt and practiced true bouyancy control wasn't until my IANTD Overhead Environment class.
This probably comes back to the arguments about certifying as many divers as you can (PADI) vs training people to really dive (GUE/CMAS/YMCA). I have to admit though that due to many reasons I did my OW on a PADI resort course. It was only through my own interest and desire to become better and more particularly safer that I carried on to learn more. There are many people that don't or maybe take AOW simply to get past that 18m limit - whether they should really be diving that deep or not.
However - this is becoming a bit sidetracked for this thread. I suppose the real relationship between Nitrox and AOW is more a question of whether a diver has the skills to maintain and know their depth in order to keep within MOD's, and even the simple self-dicipline to check their own tanks etc. If the correct skills were insisted on from the get go then it wouldn't really matter when someone took Nitrox - if they don't have the correct skills then IMO it just adds another element of danger to the list that they are already (often unwittingly) exposed to.
The first time I actually learnt and practiced true bouyancy control wasn't until my IANTD Overhead Environment class. This probably comes back to the arguments about certifying as many divers as you can (PADI) vs training people to really dive (GUE/CMAS/YMCA). I have to admit though that due to many reasons I did my OW on a PADI resort course. It was only through my own interest and desire to become better and more particularly safer that I carried on to learn more. There are many people that don't or maybe take AOW simply to get past that 18m limit - whether they should really be diving that deep or not.
However - this is becoming a bit sidetracked for this thread. I suppose the real relationship between Nitrox and AOW is more a question of whether a diver has the skills to maintain and know their depth in order to keep within MOD's, and even the simple self-dicipline to check their own tanks etc. If the correct skills were insisted on from the get go then it wouldn't really matter when someone took Nitrox - if they don't have the correct skills then IMO it just adds another element of danger to the list that they are already (often unwittingly) exposed to.
Kim:
Thats the point I was trying to make. That I was made aware of it. I also agree with MHK in that drills rather than experience should be a bigger part of training for AOW. The fact that we're given a little plastic card to say we're certified to dive to 100feet is not a guarantee that we can 'cope' with what can happen on those dives.
'Deep' courses go more into this education, and students should be encouraged to take these as a way to develop skills, and in the diving business as a whole, this continual development and continual practice should be encouraged.
Maybe whats missing in C-Card land is a record of this ongoing development?
MHK:
I noticed that you are a GUE Instructor. When you teach do you follow the training agency guidlines for the level you are teaching or design your own class.
When we teach a PADI class its expected that we teach it to PADI standards for that class.
Randy
abitton
Contributor
I just got my PADI AOW and nitrox this past weekend. I combined both of them, but actually had two separate theory sessions, one for each cert. The nitrox dives were done during my AOW (deep and wreck).
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