PADI dropping dive tables?

[The Chairman]

I just don't see the point of NOT teaching tables.

There are several and they have been presented in this and other threads.

They're very simple and can probably be thoroughly explained in 30 minutes of classtime.

I have yet to see an instructor explain tables to the point of Student comprehension in 30 minutes. I have seen a great presentation that took 1:45 and I have seen one confused student make this stretch over two nights. The problem is that the tables do not APPEAR simple to the average diver wannabe. They appear complicated and this has scared a few away from our great sport.

Afterward, give the students an hour or so of homework. That enables them to have a backup, should their computer ever fail and a primary method assuming they don't have the money yet for a computer, (very common for a new diver).

Then the next night half of them bring in the unfinished problems with a myriad of questions and you start over again. Homework only works IF they have the concepts down before they leave the class.

And tables also have a number of advantages all their own. If you do a couple dozen dives with tables, you'll probably find you have most of the first dive NDL's memorized. [/quoet] Same with PDcs.

That means that without a table, computer or anything, you've got a pretty good idea of how long you can safely stay down at different depths without getting bent,

Same with PDCs

I'm not saying that tables are better though. Computers are simpler, more convenient and give you longer dives, but tables have a few advantages of their own and should still be taught.

You haven't presented any yet.

Other reasons why we don't spend time on tables:

• Overtasking: I have far more important things for students to remember. Ascent protocols, buddy skills, gas management, and more.
• Under utilized: Why teach something that they will refuse to use?
• Fear factor: I know of people who have refused to get certified because they were terrified of tables.
• Fat fingers: PDCs might crap out, but the error rate on people working tables is simply astounding.
• PDCs don't get narced: Tables are almost useless at depth if the diver exceeds their projected depth and gets narced. PDCs handle this seemlessly.
• Inadvertant Deco: Entanglements and lost buddies can lead to inadvertant deco obligations that often exceed table limits.
• Multi-level dives: tables are unable to deal with this common type of dive.
• No alarms: Tables can't remind the diver when a limit is about to be exceded or when it actually happens. This includes Ascent, NDL, MOD, O2 Exposure and sometimes gas supply.
• Record Keeping: Depths, bottom times and stop times are recorded providing the smart diver a keen insight into their diving habits.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Some comments in red to your bullets. Obviously my notes are in red.

• Overtasking: I have far more important things for students to remember. Ascent protocols, buddy skills, gas management, and more.
• If you teach both PDC's and Tables, then planning the dive using the tables and diving the dive with PDC should teach every thing you need to teach them.
• Under utilized: Why teach something that they will refuse to use?
• One word - SNORKEL!!!! 'nuff said
• Fear factor: I know of people who have refused to get certified because they were terrified of tables.
• I definitely find this hard to believe but do believe you. I know lots of people that almost did not certify because they were terrified of mask R&R. To get around this do we stop the skill? No....the instructor works with them so that they can be comfortable with all skills and thus a better and safer diver. Personally, I think having the knowledge and the ability to dive tables makes for a better equipped diver.
• Fat fingers: PDCs might crap out, but the error rate on people working tables is simply astounding.
• Poor training perhaps? If that many mistakes are made, you simply cannot place the blame anywhere other than the Instructor's shoulders.
• PDCs don't get narced: Tables are almost useless at depth if the diver exceeds their projected depth and gets narced. PDCs handle this seemlessly.
• We are talking training dives where BOTH PDC's and tables would be taught. If the student exceeds their projected depths and are deep enough to get narced, then the instructor has REALLY mucked up and really should consider becoming a Walmart Greeter instead.
• Inadvertant Deco: Entanglements and lost buddies can lead to inadvertant deco obligations that often exceed table limits.
• Again, these are training dives under the (what should be) watchful eyes of (what should be) skilled instructors.
• Multi-level dives: tables are unable to deal with this common type of dive.
• Tables are unable to deal with depth averaging....square profile multilevel dives can be done IIRC.
• No alarms: Tables can't remind the diver when a limit is about to be exceded or when it actually happens. This includes Ascent, NDL, MOD, O2 Exposure and sometimes gas supply.
• AGREED however remind you again that these are training dives under the (what should be) watchful eyes of (what should be) skilled instructors.
• Record Keeping: Depths, bottom times and stop times are recorded providing the smart diver a keen insight into their diving habits.AGREED however see my previous comment so I do not have to retype it all.

 

[The Chairman]

Steve, I am training my students to operate WITHOUT me. There is no "watchful eye of the instructor" after class. I teach them to dive with the tools they will be using. While I teach how to use a snorkel (breath hold diving), I do not require it worn on the mask. Quite often I ask them to remove it where currents are swift.

 

[mikemill]

Perhaps tables would be better if it wasn't a glob of numbers? I admit that I didn't use tables at all until I took the UTD Essentials class. Then learned a slightly different ascent strategy and a dead simple table. My computer went into gauge mode since then.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Steve, I am training my students to operate WITHOUT me. There is no "watchful eye of the instructor" after class. I teach them to dive with the tools they will be using.

Well you are teaching them the only tools that they will be able to use since they will not be trained on what most Instructors and agencies train on (perhaps for now at least). I was trained on the tables AND trained to dive without my instructor. I dove using tables until I bought my Suunto Cobra and still do occasionally just to keep me somewhat competent with tables. That argument does not hold water IMO.

While I teach how to use a snorkel (breath hold diving), I do not require it worn on the mask. Quite often I ask them to remove it where currents are swift.

I do not recall which agency you represent Pete. Is it now common for snorkels to NOT be mandatory? When I was trained, I was told that I would not be allowed in the water without a snorkel attached. I removed it after about 30 dives because they are a PITA so I support your methods here, but still am surprised for the change.

 

[The Chairman]

I removed it after about 30 dives because they are a PITA

Hmmmmnnn... just like tables! It's all a matter of choice! You simply won't catch me wearing a snorkel unless I am FORCED. Then, it is rarely clipped to the mask. I have a major issue with most of the agencies on this requirement because they are just as useless as the tables.

Both tables and snorkels represent "sacred cows" to the Scuba Industry. If you don't teach/learn them, you will surely die and are not a real instructor/diver! If you want to learn how to really use a snorkel, take a free diving course. I'm going to! If you really want to teach/learn tables then give/take an advanced NitrOx/Deco Procedures class. Then you learn how to use Navy tables and how to generate your own using any number of planners.

 

[AfterDark]

Hmmmmnnn... just like tables! It's all a matter of choice! You simply won't catch me wearing a snorkel unless I am FORCED. Then, it is rarely clipped to the mask. I have a major issue with most of the agencies on this requirement because they are just as useless as the tables.

Both tables and snorkels represent "sacred cows" to the Scuba Industry. If you don't teach/learn them, you will surely die and are not a real instructor/diver! If you want to learn how to really use a snorkel, take a free diving course. I'm going to! If you really want to teach/learn tables then give/take an advanced NitrOx/Deco Procedures class. Then you learn how to use Navy tables and how to generate your own using any number of planners.

You must do a lot of boat diving. As a rock hopper I use my snorkel for the long swim out to the dive site and back. Swimming through choppy seas is much easier with a snorkel. Just like the tables a snorkel has a place in ones kit depending on the dive. I picked up my tables recently after 14 years of not diving and not even thinking about tables. After a couple of minutes I was using them again without problems. If I can use tables believe me ANY one can, I'm no genius.

 

[The Chairman]

You must do a lot of boat diving. As a rock hopper I use my snorkel for the long swim out to the dive site and back.

I just flip on my back and swim. No CO2 loading before the dive. Nice free airway. Perfect.

 

[matybsas]

Here in Argentina (and guess on most 3rd world countries) the situation is a little different.
The cheapest dive computer is almost 15 day salary (of a std salary). and that if we can get a 200 dollars DC from abroad (you can't just order it because customs with withold it, you need to bring it with you). Here (in a local dive store) the cheapest DC is almost 400 dollars, almost a std montly salary.
It's not common at all here to see people with a full equipment (it wil be almost 1/2 year salary), most has just Snorquel and mask and rent the rest, with the years (and depending on their income) they may keep getting equipment.
Other important fact is that there is no thing like Dice Computer rental here... I asked to and they laugh on my face!
I also don't know a diving school that provide dive computers for every student.
I needed to beg the instructor for him to borrow me his DC for 1 dive during my OWD course.
Also not every regulator has an depth gauge attached (or working) and there are not much normal wrist clocks that can resist a 18mts (59ft) dive. So the bast mayority of OWD dives with no timer, no depth gauge and they just can trust the instructor of what the max depth and bottom time was and use their PADI tables. (that came with the $50 OWD PADI manual)
So after my mask and snorkel my first piece of equipment was my Mares M2 for 200 bucks that i brought from the US.
My philosophy is that you make your dive secure.
So back to subject, i think dive tables are mandatory in some places. In general i think they must show you a dive table and at least quickly tell you what it is and what is is for. The courses need to assure you are aware of what you will be doing UW and finally it's up to you.
So remembre bringing your DC with you when you came to Argentina to dive with the sea lions, or the right whales