PADI eBusiness - Atomic Online - 800 Pound Gorilla in the Room

[Swan1172]

As someone who has two graduate degrees - one from a traditional university and one from an accredited online program, I absolutely concur with what boulderjohn said above. My online degree was much more time consuming than my traditional degree because an online environment prevents you from cutting corners. Sure, this gets frustrating at times, especially when the pace of teaching does not keep up with your pace of learning, but hey, that is the nature of the beast.

In terms of why I chose an online graduate degree, it was mostly due to the fact that I work full-time, have a young family and have a wife that travels frequently for her job. Based on those factors, it simply was not practical for me to enroll in a program where I would have been in a classroom at a fixed time each week. However, an online program offered me a great deal more flexibility in terms of when I choose to attend class. For me, it was usually after 9pm when I had put my son to bed.

I think the same thing holds true with many people who would either like to become certified or add some further specialized training to their diving resume. There are often barriers to why people can't make it to their LDS to take a class and providing an online alternative is only going to help to further engage these people into the sport and keep it growing.

 

[boulderjohn]

In terms of why I chose an online graduate degree, it was mostly due to the fact that I work full-time, have a young family and have a wife that travels frequently for her job. Based on those factors, it simply was not practical for me to enroll in a program where I would have been in a classroom at a fixed time each week. However, an online program offered me a great deal more flexibility in terms of when I choose to attend class. For me, it was usually after 9pm when I had put my son to bed.

When Colorado Community Colleges Online was formed, they expected to be drawing people from remote locations, but they found that was not true. By far most of the students preferred to take their classes online for this very reason. They could take the class when their schedule allowed, not when it was specifically offered. It offered opportunities to people whose work and home schedules would have otehrwise prevented them from getting the education they wanted.

 

[Azza]

PADI will ensure that each student goes through the same pre-class learning process. Nothing would prevent a particular instructor from conducting the same lectures currently offered. Nothing would prevent a particular instructor from adding local content to the local lectures. Nothing will prevent a particular instructor from continuing to purchase the existing student kits, complete with the manual and all of the stuff that comes in the kit, just like they do now. Nothng will prevent a particular instructor or dive center from offering the EXACT CLASS THEY NOW OFFER! In fact, independent instructors will apparently be forced to continue that practice until PADI determines it is no longer in their interest to continue to print the materials.

If the standard of that PADI material was up to par then maybe…and that’s just maybe, I would look upon this a little easier. But the reality is that some of the material in the PADI manuals is rather substandard, and in one case I found recently, dangerous.
I had an AOW student recently who read in the “Adventure in Diving” manual that a diver should carry an extra 2 kg for any deep dive to negate the extra buoyancy of an emptier than usual cylinder, due to using more air at depth. He was adamant that he should take an extra 2kg, while diving wet, on his deep dive and it took me a lot of explaining to talk him out of it, and this is after I have taught him proper gas management which shows he should come up with no less gas than he would on any other dive (which BTW no PADI material adequately addresses). Ok he might be a little slow but these are the problems instructors run up against on a regular basis and it is far easier to address these issues in the initial learning class than right before the dive. What students learn from PADI, in their eyes, isgospel and it will be hard for a lot of instructors to dispel such issues as above. If tackled in the classroom from outset…

So you say that nothing will prevent an instructor adding local content and that they can still offer the exact same class they now offer…But I can’t see it. Are we to have to different class sessions? One with PADI and one with the instructor? Maybe I just can’t visualize how PADI intend to run these “e-learning” schemes.

In my view, when the folks at PADI finally get this program sealed and in the can, students will benefit by being able to get instruction through the media of their choice, dive centers will benefit from many of the methods outlined above, and the industry will be better for the change. A win-win situation.

Win win for the shops because they will be registered online for the student to pick from but not win win for the individual instructor, independent or otherwise, nor the student in my view.
I hate to see students picking “shops” for learning as they have no choice about the instructor they are getting. Everyone learns differently and although an instructor may be a fine teacher he may not be for certain people.

In my view retail centres and dive training should be separate. I have seen too many shops push instructors to certify students they shouldn’t because “they will spend a lot of money with us”. I have also seen instructors being forced to push classes through fast to get the students out (I mean they cost money to train right?) and into the shop to buy gear.

Maybe I am a pessimist but I think this is very bad news for the industry.

 

[PhilEllis]

Hi Azza. Maybe my viewpoint is much centered on the United States practices, and here, the retail store is the center of most of the dive training that occurs. I would like to address a couple of the points you made...............

If the standard of that PADI material was up to par then maybe…and that’s just maybe, I would look upon this a little easier. But the reality is that some of the material in the PADI manuals is rather substandard, and in one case I found recently, dangerous.

If you consider the materials produced by PADI to be "dangerous", why on earth would you continue to teach the PADI program?

So you say that nothing will prevent an instructor adding local content and that they can still offer the exact same class they now offer…But I can’t see it. Are we to have to different class sessions? One with PADI and one with the instructor? Maybe I just can’t visualize how PADI intend to run these “e-learning” schemes.

These programs will run EXACTLY like the current program is with a book and a table.....if that is what you choose. As it currenty operates, you add such additional material as you deem necessary. As soon as a student signs up for the eLearning and identifies a store (instructor), the store will receive notification of the selection and they can make contact with the student immediately. Nothing would prevent them from scheduling sessions to talk about local diving differences and preparation or anything else the instructor thought necessary to make the training process a proper one. Remember, the diving will not be taught on the internet. Only the academic portion of the materials, to be supplimented with whatever else the instructor deems proper. Your inability to understand how your student might get assistance from PADI during eLearning is your shortcoming, not one of PADI. It is, when given proper thought, quite easy to visualize how PADI intends to "run" such a program.

In my view retail centres and dive training should be separate. I have seen too many shops push instructors to certify students they shouldn’t because “they will spend a lot of money with us”. I have also seen instructors being forced to push classes through fast to get the students out (I mean they cost money to train right?) and into the shop to buy gear.

Many independent instructors feel this way. It is not unusual. After all, dive centers drain away over 80% of all of the students, leaving little for the independent instructors in aggregate. To presume that the owners of all dive centers are so unethical as to "push" student through the class purely for gear sales or force students through (i presume you also imply without proper instruction) to meet time tables is unfair. Some will do that. As a PADI professional, you actually have a professional responsibility to report any excesses of the sort when you see them.

On the Issue of Independent Instructors. From what I heard, there is no intention of sending referrals for students who sign up on the PADI website to independent instructors. This may become an issue. I think I understood that there might be "software keys" available so a particular store (or instructor) could purchase them in advance and sell them to students when they sign up for a class. The instructor could then eliminate the need to keep and maintain the paperwork.

Phil Ellis

 

[TwoBitTxn]

When I get a batch of students, I am constantly trying to teach. The only thing that e-larning changes is the amount of time I get face to face to teach. Rather than spending hours in the classroom, I now need to tweek my presentations at the lake and in the pool to explain the why's that I would explain in the classroom. This could be better. People like being able to learn on their time, at their pace.

TwoBit

 

[boulderjohn]

Please remember that eLearning only deals with the academics of diving.

If there is any reason to "push students through" the academics, it would have to be because of a limit of classroom space and time. That is eliminated by eLearning--no reason to push whatsoever.

What about the tradtional class student who doesn't truly understand what is happening in that class of 8 students but is afraid to ask those extra questions because of the fear of showing ignorance in a room full of people who seem to understand. Maybe he knows enough to pass the test, but really doesn't understand. That student would have the ability to ask away in private, without fear of holding up the class or appearing dumb to the other students.

Remember, R2D2 is not teaching the class--an eLearning class is the medium through which the living, breathing instructor and the student interact.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Those who are enamoured with the sound of thier own voice in the classroom telling their numerous tales are going to have to find another way to get the stories in.

Just curious ... do you really think that this is what training in a classroom is all about?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TwoBitTxn]

Just curious ... do you really think that this is what training in a classroom is all about?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Absolutely not. I have met more than one instructor who (my opinion) feels his stories are part of the reason a student is there. Deep dark and dangerous.

Sarcasm is hard to get across on the net.

TwoBit

 

[Azza]

Hi Azza. Maybe my viewpoint is much centered on the United States practices, and here, the retail store is the center of most of the dive training that occurs. I would like to address a couple of the points you made...............

Gday Phill.Here too the majority of training occurs through retail centres.

If you consider the materials produced by PADI to be "dangerous", why on earth would you continue to teach the PADI program?


I said in “One Case” I found the material dangerous, and I think most instructors would agree with me on that particular point. For the life of me I don’t know why they put that in the manual however I don’t believe that all the material is dangerous just in some cases a little substandard and found to be lacking. This is something that is easily addressed in a classroom setting in a positive manner. On the whole the PADI material is pretty good compared to some others I see out there. Does this clarify my point for you somewhat?

Remember, the diving will not be taught on the internet. Only the academic portion of the materials, to be supplimented with whatever else the instructor deems proper.
I don’t understand the reasoning for this. Currently my business operates by giving the student the required learning materials (books CD ROM etc) to take home and study for a week or two before coming to class. This gives them a little time to absorb some information before coming to class to have that information expanded upon, knowledge reviews reviewed, exams taken and have the rest of the class structure presented.
I don’t understand the need for these “e-learning” sessions. It just seems to be that PADI is trying to be inventive and aiming to re-invent themselves somewhat for the new IT generation... Plus I guess they will be watching those awful video/DVD’s where “students” spend their whole time on their knees in the pool and ocean. This annoys me that potential students will now be exposed to this kind of learning impediment. In my own classroom sessions I can dispel the myth that this is what diving is all about.

Your inability to understand how your student might get assistance from PADI during eLearning is your shortcoming, not one of PADI. It is, when given proper thought, quite easy to visualize how PADI intends to "run" such a program.
You are probably quite right Phil.

Many independent instructors feel this way. It is not unusual. After all, dive centers drain away over 80% of all of the students, leaving little for the independent instructors in aggregate.

To be honest that doesn’t bother me. While I have an instructional company set up (Kiwi Divers Ltd) and love teaching, I teach far less students than most other instructors anyway, and it is not my main source of income since I gave up the full time dive industry around 10 months ago. I prefer to have quality not quantity. Now that’s not saying LDS doesn’t teach quality so please don’t get upset or indignant. It’s just I personally prefer to teach fewer students and give more time and mentoring to each student.

To presume that the owners of all dive centers are so unethical as to "push" student through the class purely for gear sales or force students through (i presume you also imply without proper instruction) to meet time tables is unfair.

You are right that would be unfair to claim that which is why I did not and never would claim that.
There are some very good LDS that give very good, if not exceptional training. However there is quite a few that do such things. In a small town with a small pool of divers and potential divers a living can be quite hard to come by so the temptation to do these unethical things can be rather appealing…especially when the kids have cardboard in their shoes to plug the holes. This is why I applaud you and your thinking outside the square however not every LDS owner has a business brain.

Some will do that. As a PADI professional, you actually have a professional responsibility to report any excesses of the sort when you see them.


You are dead right. It is also the quickest way to lose your job and livelihood.
I don’t know about the USA, or the rest of the world for that matter, but here in New Zealand most LDS sell courses at or below cost to drag the students in. A typical OW course runs for around $400 NZD (About $230 USD) and the instructor is under immense pressure to teach fast! With 12 students they spend the majority of the CW and OW dives kneeling on the sand and don’t really learn to dive…well not in the sense I would term learning. 1 student has a problem with a particular skill and the training slows even more.I have seen Nitrox advertised for around $99NZD ($50 USD).
I have to admit I have bowed to pressure from previous bosses once or twice in the past and am not proud of that fact. This is probably the single biggest reason I am now an Independent Instructor, and have recently set up a Dive Instruction Company that specializes in small classes. I am staunchly proud of being an Independent Instructor and will always believe that retail and training should be separate for those very reasons.

On the Issue of Independent Instructors. From what I heard, there is no intention of sending referrals for students who sign up on the PADI website to independent instructors. This may become an issue. I think I understood that there might be "software keys" available so a particular store (or instructor) could purchase them in advance and sell them to students when they sign up for a class. The instructor could then eliminate the need to keep and maintain the paperwork.

I guess I will just keep plodding on as normal as most of my students are word of mouth referrals however it does bother me when I get a referral diver that is certified to a certain level and needs retraining in that level (or the level below) because of a rushed or incomplete course or was trained by a 100 dive wonder instructor because the LDS was paying so poorly they couldn’t get anyone experienced.

Disclaimer: There is no offence intended in anything I have posted. This is just my .02c so take from it what you will.

 

[boulderjohn]

I really don't have any idea how PADI will set up the class, but according to what is considered best practice in eLearning today, the instructor has a lot more interaction with the student than most people here seem to think.

Back in the early 1990's, I was a school district staff developer. My job was to try to convince teachers to use new instructional methodologies that had been demonstrated to have a significantly positive effect on student learning. I had to be fully conversant in the latest thinking on best practices in instruction. Before I taught these methodologies, I used them myself in the classroom, and I was enthusiastic about the results.

Getting that across to "old school' teachers was a rough job--they were more than wary, and some were hostile.

When I became a PADI instructor, I had to read through all the old articles written in the 1990's in which they explained why they were doing what they were doing. It was like a trip down memory lane for me. These articles cited the best practice concepts that people like me were just learning, trying, and then teaching ourselves at the time.

That gives me hope that PADI will research and use best practices in online education in this venture.