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PADI Inadequacies
- Thread starter ScubaDon
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AliKat
Contributor
I haven't taken the time to read through all the many posts on this issue, so this has probably already been said, but...
Please don't blame PADI, blame the instructor. I just finished my DM (PADI). I spent over a year as a candidate, and worked with two different instructors. Both instructors broke the classes down in about the same way with two nights of classroom alternating with two nights of pool before hitting the open water. Each night was 4-5 hours. Each instructor was a little different, but both insisted each student rigged and broke down their dive gear no less than 5 times before ever entering the pool for the first time. I will admit, that high altitude diving was not covered with more than a mention, but we are in Okinawa.
I know there are people out there associated with agencies other than PADI that will say even this is not enough. It is a lot more than it sounds like you got from your PADI instructor(s).
Please don't blame PADI, blame the instructor. I just finished my DM (PADI). I spent over a year as a candidate, and worked with two different instructors. Both instructors broke the classes down in about the same way with two nights of classroom alternating with two nights of pool before hitting the open water. Each night was 4-5 hours. Each instructor was a little different, but both insisted each student rigged and broke down their dive gear no less than 5 times before ever entering the pool for the first time. I will admit, that high altitude diving was not covered with more than a mention, but we are in Okinawa.
I know there are people out there associated with agencies other than PADI that will say even this is not enough. It is a lot more than it sounds like you got from your PADI instructor(s).
Just an update to this thread.
A woman from PADI contacted me last Thursday about the letter I sent into PADI a couple of weeks ago.
The lady was very nice and asked me several questions about what I wrote in my letter. She was concerned about the amount of time that was spent in each class and pool session. She said that although there is no specific time limit set by PADI as to how long a class or pool session should last because it is performance based, it is up to the instructor to decide, she found it unusual how much time we spent. The thing that concerned her the most was the lack of altitude instruction. She said, as has been stated in this thread by others, that if OW certification is being done at altitude there has to be instruction on altitude diving.
She is sending me a course evaluation and got the names and addresses of others in the class and is sending them out the evaluation forms as well. She said she would be calling the dive shop and talking to the insturctors. She said that she would not be able to share the outcome with me but appreciated my letter.
I have to think that not much of anything will be done with the complaint based on the volume of new certs that this dive shop is pumping out. Why would PADI do anything to a high volume dive shop as opposed to a couple of dissatisfied divers.
I will post any further correspondence that I have with PADI if any to this thread.
Anyway my dive life goes on. I have made 14 dives since my certification in Oct. and my son just passed his OW cert yesterday, Sunday. I am signed up for a nitrox class starting on the 26th of Feb and planning on doing the SSI Stress and Rescue class in March.
Thanks to all for the great posts
Don
A woman from PADI contacted me last Thursday about the letter I sent into PADI a couple of weeks ago.
The lady was very nice and asked me several questions about what I wrote in my letter. She was concerned about the amount of time that was spent in each class and pool session. She said that although there is no specific time limit set by PADI as to how long a class or pool session should last because it is performance based, it is up to the instructor to decide, she found it unusual how much time we spent. The thing that concerned her the most was the lack of altitude instruction. She said, as has been stated in this thread by others, that if OW certification is being done at altitude there has to be instruction on altitude diving.
She is sending me a course evaluation and got the names and addresses of others in the class and is sending them out the evaluation forms as well. She said she would be calling the dive shop and talking to the insturctors. She said that she would not be able to share the outcome with me but appreciated my letter.
I have to think that not much of anything will be done with the complaint based on the volume of new certs that this dive shop is pumping out. Why would PADI do anything to a high volume dive shop as opposed to a couple of dissatisfied divers.
I will post any further correspondence that I have with PADI if any to this thread.
Anyway my dive life goes on. I have made 14 dives since my certification in Oct. and my son just passed his OW cert yesterday, Sunday. I am signed up for a nitrox class starting on the 26th of Feb and planning on doing the SSI Stress and Rescue class in March.
Thanks to all for the great posts
Don
It's obvious that PADI took your complaint seriously, otherwise you would have gotten NO response to your complaint.
Therefore, until the issue is investigated, I think it you may want to reserve "judgement".
PADI can and does take action in these matters!
~SubMariner~
ScubaDon,
There may not have been a standards violation at all. The class may have violated every standard in the book or the class may have followed standards to the letter. We simply do not know. This thread got off topic and dealt with altitude diving which should been covered by your instructor. OTOH, it is not required by the standards of any agency we've researched, so while your instructor should have covered it, not doing so is not a standards violation.
Your original complaint didn't focus on the absence of altitude instruction, but on your "lack of skills." You stated, "My dive buddy and I thought w had a pretty good class." You were satisfied with your instruction until you compared at a later date.
"until we started diving with several people with similar amounts of dives but having been certified through different agencies and we quickly realized how lacking in skills we were."
I don't believe you ever mentioned in what skills you are lacking. What (other than instruction in altitude diving) was left out of the class that you believe should have been included?
It may be that you were ripped off. It may also be that you did receive exactly the class for which you paid.
If your class did not meet standards, I feel confident PADI will take action. If it did meet standards, there is nothing PADI should do.
So, tell us what was left out?
There may not have been a standards violation at all. The class may have violated every standard in the book or the class may have followed standards to the letter. We simply do not know. This thread got off topic and dealt with altitude diving which should been covered by your instructor. OTOH, it is not required by the standards of any agency we've researched, so while your instructor should have covered it, not doing so is not a standards violation.
Your original complaint didn't focus on the absence of altitude instruction, but on your "lack of skills." You stated, "My dive buddy and I thought w had a pretty good class." You were satisfied with your instruction until you compared at a later date.
"until we started diving with several people with similar amounts of dives but having been certified through different agencies and we quickly realized how lacking in skills we were."
I don't believe you ever mentioned in what skills you are lacking. What (other than instruction in altitude diving) was left out of the class that you believe should have been included?
It may be that you were ripped off. It may also be that you did receive exactly the class for which you paid.
If your class did not meet standards, I feel confident PADI will take action. If it did meet standards, there is nothing PADI should do.
So, tell us what was left out?
Fellow divers,
I participate in other hobbies (Model railroading and Amateur Radio). With the latter we are certified (licensed) with the Federal Communications Commission. While this is somewhat different from scuba diving we still have mediating organization that represents the hobbyists interests. They are represented by a national organization called the "American Radio Relay League" (ARRL). With so many different concepts and individual interests at stake the people involved in this hobby see the need for national representation and mediation for standards support and interests. The National Model Railroad Association represents model railroaders and helps in mediating between modelers and manufactures. These two groups support the hobbyists respectively and promote to the public and other organizations.
Correct me if I'm wrong but an organization for representation of the recreational SCUBA diver doesnt exist at the present. I'm aware that there are some organizations that do support coordination for manufactures and training corporations however, a large national organization directly charged with supporting the recreational diver seems to be absent. All to often I see concerns about training coming up on this board and even from talking to divers in person on actual dives.
I believe that ScubaDon's concerns are valid as the very fact that there are differences in the ways certifying agencies train and certify their divers. It would seem that there are many different ways to certify and with agencies not picking a standard the differences could be hidden until they are needed in a time of emergency and then it would be too late.
I don't profess to know everything there is to know about this hobby but from experience I can attest that my other hobbies are represented both to the general public and companies involved in providing goods and services to us.
Just my $.03 worth
SD
I participate in other hobbies (Model railroading and Amateur Radio). With the latter we are certified (licensed) with the Federal Communications Commission. While this is somewhat different from scuba diving we still have mediating organization that represents the hobbyists interests. They are represented by a national organization called the "American Radio Relay League" (ARRL). With so many different concepts and individual interests at stake the people involved in this hobby see the need for national representation and mediation for standards support and interests. The National Model Railroad Association represents model railroaders and helps in mediating between modelers and manufactures. These two groups support the hobbyists respectively and promote to the public and other organizations.
Correct me if I'm wrong but an organization for representation of the recreational SCUBA diver doesnt exist at the present. I'm aware that there are some organizations that do support coordination for manufactures and training corporations however, a large national organization directly charged with supporting the recreational diver seems to be absent. All to often I see concerns about training coming up on this board and even from talking to divers in person on actual dives.
I believe that ScubaDon's concerns are valid as the very fact that there are differences in the ways certifying agencies train and certify their divers. It would seem that there are many different ways to certify and with agencies not picking a standard the differences could be hidden until they are needed in a time of emergency and then it would be too late.
I don't profess to know everything there is to know about this hobby but from experience I can attest that my other hobbies are represented both to the general public and companies involved in providing goods and services to us.
Just my $.03 worth
SD
SD40T-2,
I missed your point.
I missed your point.
SMKChef
Contributor
Um, his point is that there should be a national governing body that oversees all of the SCUBA training agencies so that some form of standardization of training requirements can be produced. This governing body would also represent consumers to manufacturers and mediate when questions arise concerning quality of education or other concerns arise.
Did that help?
Walter I'll try and clairfy and simplify,
My main point was having been involved in other hobbies that enjoy support, guidance and leadership from a national (or international for that matter) organization perhaps diving could alos enjoy these same benefits and to promote scuba diving with the diver's best interests in mind. Diving seems to lack that type of organization thus far.
I think we find cases like Scubadon's that keep coming up due to the lack of an organization to campaign the many certifiying agencies to adopt a standard of training. The very fact that you mentioned some ammount of variance and I quote:
I feel that since I did learn something about altitude diving in my OW class (Scuba Schools International) and Scubadon didn't (in his PADI Class) as referenced in his original post that there is some variance in curriculums between agencies. I believe, the main inadequacies in this whole thing are that the various agencies don't standardize on a method of instruction and follow it. In Amateur Radio there are standards that are in place. There are some standards are considered laws because they have been practiced for so long and they have been agreed upon by the FCC. For example: Manufactures must have their new production radios pass certain criteria to be sold in the market. Likewise, radio operators have to pass a standarized test agreed upon by the FCC. The ARRL steps in sometimes and represents the individual operator to the FCC and others and tries to help support the hobby as a whole
In Model Railroading there is no government control over the hobby, but we still have a form standards that help the manufactures agree to a standard for a certain guage.
The NMRA tries to organize a set of standards so that equipment and procedures will have interoperability.
Too many times i see a lack of coordination between manufactures of various diving equipment as well as the certification companies.
I would like to see some type of organization established to promote the art and science of recreational SCUBA diving with the individual diver at the heart of that cause.
I hope this clears things up
My main point was having been involved in other hobbies that enjoy support, guidance and leadership from a national (or international for that matter) organization perhaps diving could alos enjoy these same benefits and to promote scuba diving with the diver's best interests in mind. Diving seems to lack that type of organization thus far.
I think we find cases like Scubadon's that keep coming up due to the lack of an organization to campaign the many certifiying agencies to adopt a standard of training. The very fact that you mentioned some ammount of variance and I quote:
I feel that since I did learn something about altitude diving in my OW class (Scuba Schools International) and Scubadon didn't (in his PADI Class) as referenced in his original post that there is some variance in curriculums between agencies. I believe, the main inadequacies in this whole thing are that the various agencies don't standardize on a method of instruction and follow it. In Amateur Radio there are standards that are in place. There are some standards are considered laws because they have been practiced for so long and they have been agreed upon by the FCC. For example: Manufactures must have their new production radios pass certain criteria to be sold in the market. Likewise, radio operators have to pass a standarized test agreed upon by the FCC. The ARRL steps in sometimes and represents the individual operator to the FCC and others and tries to help support the hobby as a whole
In Model Railroading there is no government control over the hobby, but we still have a form standards that help the manufactures agree to a standard for a certain guage.
The NMRA tries to organize a set of standards so that equipment and procedures will have interoperability.
Too many times i see a lack of coordination between manufactures of various diving equipment as well as the certification companies.
I would like to see some type of organization established to promote the art and science of recreational SCUBA diving with the individual diver at the heart of that cause.
I hope this clears things up
Although I respect your position, I disagree. I too was made aware of the consideration of diving at altitude in a PADI course in '90. I was also taught decompression theory in a Y course in '71. I get the impression that many who took any diving instruction at that time did.
But what has happened to personal responsibility? We've given that up in almost every aspect of today's society. In almost every equipment manual and course literature related to diving, there abound ~ad nauseum~ claims about this being an inherently dangerous sport and the need for proper training, yadda, yadda...
My Y course instructor put us through some situations in the pool sessions that many would consider unwarranted and unnecessary. I would argue that they were wholly appropriate. Those skills and ability to think and deal with unexpected situations underwater have been invaluable.
By today's "standards", they would be considered masochistic. But that's where I would support the level of training be again. But that will never happen due to the econimics.
As for a unified agency? I certainly don't want one! Part of the allure for me of this sport is the fact that it's one of the few activities that remain "relatively" untarnished by regulatory intervention.
I neither want nor need Scuba Police. It's kind of harsh, but I'm all for allowing Darwin to keep the gene pool clean. Regardless of the sport!
This thread is titled "PADI inadequacies". I think there's plenty of that in all the agencies in one respect or the other.
Rock climbing, skiing (snow), Auto Racing. Those sports are overtly dangerous. You see someone fall 200 ft or hit a wall @ 170 mph and die, most people can understand. People seem to instinctively be able to grasp the concept to blunt force trauma.
Diving, on the other hand, is a much more a covert & subtly dangerous activity. It is a science, and requires a reasonable comprehension of gas physics and the related physiology of the human body to fully appreciate just how dangerous it is to strap that unit on and dive. I would contend that many of the divers currently certified either had no ability to understand what they were taught or were not taught it adequately. The latter being my candidate for the real culprit based on the courses I've taken.
The board is rife with anecdotal incidences of dangerous diving activities. And to me, "experience" in number of dives has little to do with knowledge and understanding. And I don't think a "unified" agency is going to fix that.
As participants, it is incumbent on us to take care of ourselves. Almost everyone that gets into this sport, does so at the behest of someone else's already being active in diving. A friend ,or relative, says, "hey, you ought to try this." But too many just get the bare minimum, and off they go, never to really and truly understand the ramifications of their lack of knowledge.
Not enough questions asked! I believe that concept has been proffered on the board a bit as well.
I have posted before that I think the general diving community would be greatly served if it were to adopt a sort of apprenticeship/mentoship philosophy. If you're an experienced diver, you help look out for those less so. What is most tragic, is that our society has become so litigious that this would be almost impossible to achieve. People just don't want to get involved because of the legal consequences.
Anybody got .03 change for a Nickel?
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