PADI Inadequacies

[ScubaDon]

Walter once bubbled...
ScubaDon,

There may not have been a standards violation at all. The class may have violated every standard in the book or the class may have followed standards to the letter. We simply do not know. This thread got off topic and dealt with altitude diving which should been covered by your instructor. OTOH, it is not required by the standards of any agency we've researched, so while your instructor should have covered it, not doing so is not a standards violation.

On the contrary, in talking with the lady from PADI it is a standard to cover altitude diving when the class is being taught at altitude or will be doing OW certs at altitude. In fact the lady I spoke with had been to the dive site which we did our OW certification and said she knew about the mountain pass and elevation that I was talking about and that should have been discussed. She told me that the comment that bothered her the most was what the reply was when we asked about altitude diving. The instructor told us that if they talked about that they would have to charge us for another class.

Walter once bubbled... Your original complaint didn't focus on the absence of altitude instruction, but on your "lack of skills." You stated, "My dive buddy and I thought w had a pretty good class." You were satisfied with your instruction until you compared at a later date..

True......How were we to know until we got into the real world and started diving and I attended my sons classes. We had nothing to compare our instsruction or skills to. In class you are directed in a specific direction and you do what you can to achieve some sort of proficiency in those skills and move on to the next thing that is presented. If you don't know otherwise you think you did pretty good. Your instructor says you did good naturally you think you did as well, not having anything to compare to we leave the class feeling we're ready. I I originally stated, we were happy with our class until we saw otherwise. I told the lady I talked with from PADI that the instructors were very personable and we really enjoyed being in the class and they made it enjoyable. But that didn't make up for the skills that were left out................which leads to the following question

I don't believe you ever mentioned in what skills you are lacking. What (other than instruction in altitude diving) was left out of the class that you believe should have been included?

Let's see where to start........Altitude, proper weighting, fin kicks, water entries, learned the giant stride, controlled emergency ascents, learned the thing swimming the length of the pool to simulate it, my son did his OW this last weekend and he even learned how to drop his weights and flare his body to control his ascent, never did that! Let's see, did lots of mask clearing, in pool and open water. There were just lots of little things that add up to make you more prepared. I felt I was prepared for that first dive without my instructor but found out otherwise, luckily there was a class there certifying and the instructor took pity on me and helped me with several things. [/QUOTE]

It may be that you were ripped off. It may also be that you did receive exactly the class for which you paid.

Nope, paid for the OW certification, which is to get me ready to be a safe diver. That it was not. Funny how all six people in the class are in agreement on that issue.

your class did not meet standards, I feel confident PADI will take action.

Not sure about that, we'll see. She already told me that the class did not meet standards on the altitude issue.

 

[Walter]

ScubaDon,

I've talked to lots of people who believe there are requirements in PADI's standards that simply are not there, some of those people are in PADI headquarters. I, personally, have not looked at PADI standards to search for the altitude requirement since this topic was raised. We do have PADI instructors on this board who did such a search, they've all reported they would teach altitude in such a situation, but that standards do not require it. PADI is not the only agency who has dropped the ball on this issue. As far as I can tell (thanks to Stephen Ash) none of the agencies have an adequate position on this topic.

Now about, "proper weighting, fin kicks, water entries" Did you learn weighting? If you did, standards may have been followed. While I may disagree with your instructor's presentation, it may be difficult to prove the weighting wasn't "proper." This is especially true since so many do it poorly. Did you not learn any fin kicks? Entries? Giant stride is an entry. "controlled emergency ascents, learned the thing swimming the length of the pool to simulate it" This is required by standards as you described it. You should have also done a vertical ascent in open water. Did you?

"paid for the OW certification"

All too often that is exactly what people do.

"which is to get me ready to be a safe diver."

I would contend it isn't so designed. You purchased a particular brand of instruction. You may have received it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

ScubaDon once bubbled...




Let's see where to start........Altitude, proper weighting, fin kicks, water entries, learned the giant stride, controlled emergency ascents, learned the thing swimming the length of the pool to simulate it, my son did his OW this last weekend and he even learned how to drop his weights and flare his body to control his ascent, never did that! .......

Are you saying that your son droped his weights and did an uncontrolled buoyant ascent on a OW dive?

 

[SD40T-2]

raybo once bubbled...

As for a unified agency? I certainly don't want one! Part of the allure for me of this sport is the fact that it's one of the few activities that remain "relatively" untarnished by regulatory intervention.

I neither want nor need Scuba Police. It's kind of harsh, but I'm all for allowing Darwin to keep the gene pool clean. Regardless of the sport!

Raybo,

Don't get me wrong. I don't want regulatory intervention either, nor do I want any type of Scuba Police. I'm talking about a organization that would represent divers to the diving companies (equipment, certifying, or other type) and other organizations. None of the non-profit organizations that I belong to control the hobbies, instead they campaign for the individual's interests as well as regional and local clubs.

my $.02 cents to your $.03.....There we don't need to make change.

SD

 

[Walter]

We almost have that now with regard to standards. Minimum standards are set and each agency is free to exceed those standards. Of course, there's no law requiring an agency to follow those minimums. Getting more restrictive than that is, IMHO, a mistake. Everyone should have the option to shop around for their personal preference. Some want fast, cheap and easy. Others want a comprehensive course and are willing to put extra time and money into it. Why should either group be forced to do without? The big problem, as I see it, is fast and easy programs would have everyone believe there's no difference. There clearly are big differences.

 

[ScubaDon]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Are you saying that your son droped his weights and did an uncontrolled buoyant ascent on a OW dive?

More like a controlled, uncontrolled ascent. His instructor held onto him to keep him from shooting to the top.

 

[MikeFerrara]

ScubaDon once bubbled...


More like a controlled, uncontrolled ascent. His instructor held onto him to keep him from shooting to the top.

Did the instructor say when and why one would ever want to do such a thing. Dropping weights at depth is bad news. Properly weighted I don't think you should ever have to drop weights to reach the surface. For sure you shouldn't need to drop all of them. On the surface of course when in doubt ditch the weight. I don't think I would have students practice rapid ascents especially in open water.

 

[SD40T-2]

Ok my bad...it seems I've been misunderstood....

I'm NOT talking about:
- Placing restrictions
- Implementing laws and enforcement
- forcing standards
- or any type of control

I am promoting an organization that would:
- make suggestions on training course's similarities
- represent divers wants and needs to training companies and
manufacturing companies
- promote diving to the non-diving public
- provide the diving community services and information

This would NOT be a governing type organization in the least. Only representation and promotion would be it's charge.

SD

Walter once bubbled...
We almost have that now with regard to standards. Minimum standards are set and each agency is free to exceed those standards. Of course, there's no law requiring an agency to follow those minimums. Getting more restrictive than that is, IMHO, a mistake. Everyone should have the option to shop around for their personal preference. Some want fast, cheap and easy. Others want a comprehensive course and are willing to put extra time and money into it. Why should either group be forced to do without? The big problem, as I see it, is fast and easy programs would have everyone believe there's no difference. There clearly are big differences.