Padi Open Water Course

[tinman]

Bubble Boy once bubbled...
As everyone has said above find out what is included and what is not.

Does it include:

use of tanks, BC and regs for pool use and check out weekend?
rental wetsuit for check out weekend?
classroom fee
certification card fee
log book
text book
dive tables
pool fee
classroom and pool instructor fee
exam fee
checkout fee
air fills during the course
extra pool time if required

is the price different on skin gear (mask, fins, snorkel, weight belt and weight) if you are taking the course at the LDS?

Have you considered a dive club as an alternative to a LDS?

...excellent check list and others have given you a great start on making your decision. My only concern with Bubble Boy's statement is the end where I believe he is suggesting considering a dive club as a source of training. That I'm not a fan of - despite having done it myself. My experience has been that an LDS (Local Dive Shop) will generally equip you better for your course since they usually sell off their training gear each year - clubs don't always have this luxury. Knowing what I know now, I would have done more homework and checked out the LDS's as a source of training - 20/20 hindsight is a great thing. Don't get me wrong - joining a club after being certified is a great idea for a new diver as a source of dive buddies, scheduled dives, social gatherings, and dive site information.

Learning to dive, is not like learning to roller blade, golf or bowl! Expect to spend more money than you have currently budgetted even if you're just getting your feet wet. Try to reassess your fitness level, particularly your aerobic fitness.

Once you've blown some bubbles underwater, you may want to have your SO lock away your wallet for a while, once addicted there's no looking back...

 

[Groundhog246]

seahunter once bubbled...
BTW sparky what's wrong with divers who only make a few dives a year at the cottage or on their week-long trip to the south? Lots of divers enjoy scuba diving without falling head-over-heels. They still deserve a quality training program and great service. We get hundreds of new divers who want to take the course just so they can dive on their annual timeshare trip. I don't understand how that has any relationship to the 'quality ' of the scuba school!

The only problem with that type diver is they usually have a relatively low in water skill level (fair to poor buoyancy control) and with a year between dives don't always remember everything they should. According to DAN, infrequent divers experience a larger proportion of dive related injuries. I have personally seen infrequent divers, who, despite LDS emphasis on annual service, will go far longer as "I don't use it much, so it shouldn't need service". Probably the same person who doesn't change their vehicle motor oil every 3 months, because they don’t drive a lot and haven’t reached 5000km, the heck with what the owners manual says.
I've also seen it in other activities. I've seen guys who have sailed for years, but not for a while, forget some important tasks, causing major headaches and injuries.
Or like the guy who hasn't ridden his bike in years and has gone slightly out of shape, setting off for a 10km jaunt, because he "used to do it all the time".

So, yes they deserve a quality training program. If anything they need a better than average program so that they can retain longer those skills they infrequently practice.

(PS, I will admit that my views have been somewhat affected by those of my LDS)

 

[seahunter]

Absolutely right Tinman!
Clubs are good places to meet divers and to explore new diving experiences but not the best for training. Don't bite my head off if you were trained at a club and loved it. Club instruction CAN be great! But it usually is not possible in the volunteer club environment to get a top quality, introduction to the whole sport.
Usually the instructor is paid very little if any. We've had to step in on two occasions this year alone and complete the training for 2 clubs when the instructor let the class down. Also he will not necessarily be up-to-date on the latest standards and methods because he only teaches once or twice a year.
As well, they may used out-dated, worn-out or borrowed gear that may not even suit or fit the new divers.
Training materials may also be re-used and old editions.
As Tinman says, a quality scuba school has so many resources right at hand that enhance the learning and expose the students to all the wonderful aspects of the course. They'll learn about all the gear available, the scuba rental system, other courses they can take, careers in scuba, be exposed to several instructors and so on.

It may seem at first glance Fish that a school that teaches once a month is a good idea but... are you suggesting he does that because it makes a better course for the divers or is it because that's the volume of business he gets. If he had students for two (or more) classes, would he turn them away?
We ensure the personal touch more than most schools with a much lower volume by the use of friendly store staff, enthusiastic instructors, low ratios (just 4 divers per instructor), encouraging pool practice sessions after the course and so on. It really comes down to treating the new divers like family. One small course a month seems to me to limit the opportunities for the divers to mix, mingle, socialize and feel part of a dynamic group of fun-seeking divers.
As usual, it really depends on the store and the staff including the instructors whether the business is large and busy or small.

 

[seahunter]

If they developed the proper attitudes during their course, the new divers will not exceed their training or experience limitations.
Certainly those that dive just a few times a year may not have the same skill level as a dedicated scuba diver but, they also very likely know that. They very likely depend on a professional dive charter service rather than dive alone, they will more likely take advantage of a refresher at their LDS (which a lot of experienced divers should do but won't) and they are more likely to use rented gear so must seek professional advise when going diving.

Basically, the occasional diver is much more likely to depend heavily on the LDS or the scuba store when on holidays.

I respect your views g-Hog but notice you too fall into the trap of assuming that the more they learn on the O/W course the more they'll retain when, in fact, educational experts will tell you the oppposite is true. The dedicated diver will concentrate and study his new-found sport and learn all about it. The diver who only wants to dive once a year in Florida needs only to learn the important basic information and master the basic skills that will allow him to dive safely in shallow water and in 'soft' diving conditions.

 

[sparky30]

seahunter once bubbled...
BTW sparky what's wrong with divers who only make a few dives a year at the cottage or on their week-long trip to the south? Lots of divers enjoy scuba diving without falling head-over-heels. They still deserve a quality training program and great service. We get hundreds of new divers who want to take the course just so they can dive on their annual timeshare trip. I don't understand how that has any relationship to the 'quality ' of the scuba school!

You are correct.. that does not have a direct relationship to the quality of the school.. However, I find that LDSs who can motivate folks to dive more than twice a year end up with better students who eventually go on to their AOW, etc...to become better divers..
The problem I have with the infrequent divers is that their skills are slowly but surely fading away. Usually bouyancy is the first to go. I'm sure you've seen them.. The friendly folks who have been certified for 10 years, and point it out to everybpdy on the diveboat.. When they get in the water they hit the sand.. hold on to coral (breaking pieces off in the process), flatten sponges, and dangle octos and gauges all over the place.. They same folks usually crawl all over you on your safety stop and have no idea where their fins are.. (Usually in my face). When they get back on the boat the chastise other divers for not getting out of the way during their safetey stop on the line...Even worse.. thet try to give new divers advice.. I've seen all of those things happend. I just think people who dive more regulary maintain their skills and know their limits.

 

[GTADiver]

seahunter once bubbled...
Absolutely right Tinman!
Clubs are good places to meet divers and to explore new diving experiences but not the best for training. Don't bite my head off if you were trained at a club and loved it. Club instruction CAN be great! But it usually is not possible in the volunteer club environment to get a top quality, introduction to the whole sport.
Usually the instructor is paid very little if any.

From a store owner no other statement could be expected. Finding a dive club is like finding a LDS in that you should do some research first. You whether they are a teaching club or not. It does not matter if you are taking a course in a club setting or in a store as far as the instructors pay goes.....it is below minimum wage when all is figured out. Most instructors in both settings teach because they love the sport.

As far as top quality instructors go, you will find them in some clubs. I have belonged to clubs that had a PADI Course Director, ACUC Instructor Trainers and Naui Instructor Trainers as well.

A club trains you to dive safely with them. I would not knock them at all.

 

[Groundhog246]

seahunter once bubbled...
I respect your views g-Hog but notice you too fall into the trap of assuming that the more they learn on the O/W course the more they'll retain when, in fact, educational experts will tell you the oppposite is true.

Not sure if I'm misunderstood , mis-quoted or I mis-stated. I agree that too much info can overload and less ends up retained. I think knowing the gas laws and their place is important, but the name of the law much less so. As long as you understand volume will increase as pressure decreases, who's law (actually is the law of physics ) it is isn't.
What I was trying to say, is the sooner and more often you put the knowledge and skills you learned to use, the better you will retain them. Kinda like tha guy who hasn't used his small power boat in months forgetting to put the drain plug in BEFORE puttting the boat in the water. Hands up those who've watch that happen.

 

[seahunter]

Easy GTA!
I did say "Don't bite my head off!" (heck of a mouthful anyway).

I have personally been the driving force in helping to start, build and support at least a dozen scuba clubs in Ontario including the IBM Scuba Club, the Granite Scuba Club, York Scuba and others that are no longer around mainly due to the apathy of the members and the inability of the club to offer the amenities of a good LDS.
I am currently the single supporting store for two quite active clubs in Toronto and that means giving my time and ideas to them with no guarantee of a return (not good business) as well as a discount on gear and rentals (not fair to my other customers who have to earn discounts) and finally, regular donations of scuba stuff for them to use as fundraisers (just plain stupid on my part - I give them stuff I paid for so they can sell it at less than wholesale to my customers to raise money to run events at a loss for my customers to attend!). I hope you understand that last sentence because I'm not sure if I can repeat it. I've made our training facilities (class and pool) available for club functions. Heck, I've even referred some customers to a club for training or experience in an area that we don't cover!

The point is that I'm a big fan of clubs and recommend, even on this board, that all divers should join clubs to get extra, unique diving experience.

I simply have seen the change of the club role and the scuba shop role over the last 25 years and appreciate that stores (scuba schools) are now the best choice for quality, up-to-date, efficient and impartial training. Obviously there's an assumption the store is a good store.
Clubs do have a role in the sport and that role IMO is to provide an alternative choice for divers for meeting other divers, socializing, gaining experience and enjoying dive experiences that are not offered elsewhere. They cannot effectively offer the scuba services that a good LDS does - training, sales, service. If they cannot do it effectively, and that means as good as, they should not try. They would be cheating the new divers.

While we're on the subject, may I suggest that clubs ought to openly support the stores if not even choose a store sponsor to give them the services as described above. Both the club and the store would benefit. Many clubs are afraid to associate with a store for fear they'll be considered unfair. What bunk!! The club executive should make a fair, unbiased assessment of which store would best service the club and make that store it's partner. The practice of naming 3 stores for their students to choose from so they don't appear to be promoting a single store is simply unfair if not stupid. The executive has the knowledge to choose a good store and has the responsibility to take care of the new diver in the club. The new diver meanwhile has no idea which of the 3 to go to. Make an informed decision and go for it! If it turns out the store was not the best choice for the club, change it!!
If some senior members don't like the choice they can go to their own favorite store. Club members don't have to go to the club sponsor - it's simply the best choice by the executive for new divers to work with. That store will also be much more likely to support the club in the ways I've mentioned above.

Clubs and stores are not competitors (or shouldn't be!) - they should be partners in promoting scuba and ensuring it's continued fun and safety.

It works for me and for the clubs I've helped.

 

[tinman]

seahunter once bubbled...
While we're on the subject, may I suggest that clubs ought to openly support the stores if not even choose a store sponsor to give them the services as described above. Both the club and the store would benefit. Many clubs are afraid to associate with a store for fear they'll be considered unfair. What bunk!! The club executive should make a fair, unbiased assessment of which store would best service the club and make that store it's partner. The practice of naming 3 stores for their students to choose from so they don't appear to be promoting a single store is simply unfair if not stupid. The executive has the knowledge to choose a good store and has the responsibility to take care of the new diver in the club. The new diver meanwhile has no idea which of the 3 to go to. Make an informed decision and go for it! If it turns out the store was not the best choice for the club, change it!!

If some senior members don't like the choice they can go to their own favorite store. Club members don't have to go to the club sponsor - it's simply the best choice by the executive for new divers to work with. That store will also be much more likely to support the club in the ways I've mentioned above.

Clubs and stores are not competitors (or shouldn't be!) - they should be partners in promoting scuba and ensuring it's continued fun and safety.

It works for me and for the clubs I've helped.

Absolutely! I couldn't agree more. I've own and managed businesses outside this sport and this is just good business practice and very synergistic. Those club executives that don't see this, need to get their heads out of the sand, clouds or silt...

 

[seahunter]

I knew I wasn't getting a clear message G'hog.

Quite right and exactly the reason ALL divers must understand the crucial importance of regular diving OR refreshers before diving after a long absence.
Actually, I see a lot of experienced divers who stop diving in October and then plan to jump into the water on a deep dive in April with no thought to checking their skills or even their gear. They don't seem to realize that 5 months is almost 1/2 a year and that length of time without once being underwater is too long particularly if planning on an early spring dive (the water is colder and faster than in November). There are many frenzied plans being made openly right now on this site and others (The Diving Board http://www.scuba2000.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi ) to dive at some fairly deep or strenuous sites by divers who I know have not been in the water in the past 5 or 6 months.
Peer pressure kills more divers than water pressure!