PADI OW QA Question

[kafkaland]

For me, as an instructor, as a result of your training and experiences, do you feel comfortable planning and executing a simple dive in warm water similar to what you dove? IF the answer is yes, great -- then carry on and continue with your diving and training. If you don't, carry on and continue with your training and diving.

Peter, your question about my comfort level with what I have learned is a good one. I feel very confident that I can safely do a simple dive off a boat in warm water under good conditions in the 30-40ft range, especially when guided by a DM. I'm also now getting my own computer (UWATEK Luna) and regulators (Aqualung LX Supreme), that should take care of having to rely on someone else's computer while bumping into the table NDLs. As to going deeper, I am not sure I am that comfortable around 60ft. yet - if something went terribly wrong and and I somehow couldn't get hold of my buddy right away, I'm afraid it might not end well. Also, I'm not sure about shore dives, mostly the float and dive flag is at the moment probably more than I care to take on in terms of task loading.

For local diving (I live in Michigan), I need additional skills. The LDS who did a good job with the theory and pool portion of my OW training offers a triple pack of Nitrox/Drysuit/AOW training, for which I have signed up, and already done the Nitrox portion. The rest will follow as soon as the Gilboa quarry warms up a bit. And then hopefully I can just relax and dive a bit. Later this summer I will be going to Utila with a fun group for 'gay scuba week', and hopefully get some enjoyable bottom time in. And then back to cold Michigan, where our LDS offers some Great Lakes diving, for which I think I'll be ready by then.

 

[TMHeimer]

We all agree on the violations and that what you did was right. Good to hear that you feel quite comfortable about your diving. Hope you get the card. I as well had card problems and found they are good at explaining stuff on the phone (though I can't complain about e mail responses either, though it takes a day or 2). A good idea may be to find another instructor at home to go over the Alt. Air ascent and any other skills that may have been missed.

 

[boulderjohn]

As to going deeper, I am not sure I am that comfortable around 60ft. yet - if something went terribly wrong and and I somehow couldn't get hold of my buddy right away, I'm afraid it might not end well.

If I were you, I would really think through what you just wrote. You are not specific in what you mean by something going terribly wrong and not ending well. What would that be?

There aren't that many things that can go wrong, and in your OW course, you were taught the proper response to anything I can think of that could happen during the kind of dive you are describing. If you are having any kind of a problem, you should be able to solve it calmly, efficiently, and without incident, using only the skills you have already been taught.

There is, however, one very serious thing that could go wrong on any incident. You might panic. If you panic, you may do something rash. In your rashness, you could forget your training and do the opposite of what you were taught, and that might include holding your breath, the most dangerous thing you can do in scuba. That is really the only thing that can go terribly wrong, and you are completely in control of that.

The reason I am writing now is because of what you wrote: "if something went terribly wrong and and I somehow couldn't get hold of my buddy right away, I'm afraid it might not end well." That sounds like the kind of pessimism that will lead to panic. If something does go wrong, you have to keep your head. Your reaction cannot be "OMG! I'm going to die!" It has to be instead "Oh, rats! I guess I'm going to have to do what I was taught to do in class now and end the dive. What a drag!"

I sometimes see a sign of potential panic in students when we are doing a drill like the alternate air skill and they act like they absolutely must get the alternate regulator in their mouths within a half second of taking their own out. When I see that sort of thing, I will do a demonstration in which I take my regulator out, lay it on the pool floor, and idly drum my fingers on the pool floor, as if I am bored, while letting a thin stream of bubbles trail out of my mouth. Eventually I reach down and replace the regulator. That demonstration of the fact that you have lots of time to stop, think, and act under water seems to help them relax. Perhaps you might want to think about that as well.

 

[kafkaland]

John, I hear you. I didn't want to make the above post too long by going into all kinds of scenarios of what could go wrong, and what the consequences might be. And you're right, despite my training I cannot rule out that I would panic, although I hope I won't. I have been underwater without air for longer than I cared to a few times when I wiped out surfing bigger waves, but those situations didn't involve much decision-making, just staying calm and trying to get to the surface.

And that's where for me, at least subjectively, the difference between 40ft. and 60ft. comes in. Assume for a moment a worst-case scenario of insta-buddy chasing some fish and being useless, and a blow-out of the primary o-ring with no other redundant air source. At 30 to 40 ft. I'm quite confident that I can make it to the surface by CESA, and the only harm done might be what I would do to my buddy afterwards. For whatever reason, I'm not so confident about the same at 60ft. or deeper. It would require a quick decision to ditch weights and go buoyant (although if the tank air goes, that might already give me enough buoyancy there - again a decision that would have to be made rather quickly). Then exhale and hope I reach the surface before I pass out. And that kind of ascent does have inherent risks even if done correctly, from DCS from the rapid ascent to drowning if I pass out and no one notices it in time to fish me out of the water. And I guess that's why such a buoyant ascent isn't practiced in OW training.

 

[boulderjohn]

And that's where for me, at least subjectively, the difference between 40ft. and 60ft. comes in. Assume for a moment a worst-case scenario of insta-buddy chasing some fish and being useless, and a blow-out of the primary o-ring with no other redundant air source.

If your primary O-ring were to go bad, you will lose air quickly, and it will create a shower of bubbles that will surprise the snot out of you, but it will not end your air supply immediately. Just swim calmly to the surface, breathing all the way. You will still have breathable air when you get there.

At 30 to 40 ft. I'm quite confident that I can make it to the surface by CESA, and the only harm done might be what I would do to my buddy afterwards. For whatever reason, I'm not so confident about the same at 60ft. or deeper.

You can do a CESA from much deeper than that. Even if you had gone out of air, didn't notice that the tank was getting harder to breathe for the last few breaths, and started up with only a little bit of inhalation, you should still be OK. You only exhale a portion of the air in your lungs when you breathe, so they aren't empty. That air will be expanding, and oxygen will still be entering your blood. Additionally, your tank is not out of air. It was just unable to deliver the air to you at the pressure you were under when you thought the tank was empty. As you ascend and the water pressure gets less, the regulator will work again, and you will get more air. Keep your regulator in your mouth and inhale if the need arises.

Back in the days when divers used J-valves and no SPG, those valves were notoriously unreliable. Divers did CESAs frequently, even from depths of 100 feet. Because it was so common then, they were more confident in their ability to do it than modern divers are. It really isn't that hard.

It would require a quick decision to ditch weights and go buoyant (although if the tank air goes, that might already give me enough buoyancy there - again a decision that would have to be made rather quickly).

If you were neutrally buoyant to begin with, as you should have been, the minute you start ascending, the air in the BCD will expand, and you will be heading to the surface without dropping weights. You will have a greater need to slow your ascent down than to drop your weights. The caca would have to be very seriously on the fan for you to need to drop weights. I know they tell you to drop your weights in that situation, and you should not hesitate to dump them if for some reason you are unable to ascend, but if your BCD is working properly, it should not be necessary. If you decide it is necessary, then do it, but it is not something that has to be decided in a second or two.

Then exhale and hope I reach the surface before I pass out. And that kind of ascent does have inherent risks even if done correctly, from DCS from the rapid ascent to drowning if I pass out and no one notices it in time to fish me out of the water. And I guess that's why such a buoyant ascent isn't practiced in OW training.

You exhale slowly, just enough to let the air out that is expanding as you ascend. When you reach the surface, you should still be exhaling. If you blew through it all too quickly, just inhale. You should get a breath, as I said before. Even if you had no air in your lungs (which is not possible) and no possibility of getting any, you still have enough oxygen in your blood to keep you awake for a minute to a minute and a half.

If you are within no decompression limits, the odds of you getting DCS from this are very small, and if you do, it will mean a trip to a recompression chamber, not passing out and drowning on the surface. Decompression sickness on these kinds of dives is extremely rare, and when it does happen, it is almost never fatal.

The reason it is not practiced is because the real threat is an air embolism caused by someone not exhaling properly upon ascent. That is the danger in the situation you describe. The real danger is that someone will think--like you do right now--that "OMG! I have to make a life or death decision in the next second and and get to the surface in three seconds before I pass out and die!" That belief is what causes the problem. If you can truly understand that things are not anywhere near as bad as that, and if you can keep your head and act calmly and appropriately in that situation, then the only thing you will have to deal with after that is the very real embarrassment of having gone out of air without a buddy nearby.

 

[WheelsUSN]

Among the things I noticed were that we didn't do the alternate air ascent (poor planning of the dives), and that we went to 64ft. on the last dive and were asked to log it at 60ft. Also, we didn't have our own timing device or computer, only the instructor had one. He actually showed us his at the bottom - that's how I know that it was 64 (the analog gauge didn't seem that accurate). And when I later went through what he put in our log books as times and surface intervals, and calculated the pressure groups using the table (with the correct depth of 64 rounded to 70), it turned out we overshot the no-deco time by two minutes. But then I'm sure we were still good per his computer (if the times are accurate) as it would have given us credit for not being at full depth the entire time.

Not doing the alternate air ascent was a violation as well as going deeper than 60 feet. However, even though I feel that each diver should have their own timing device, PADI standards do not require it for OW students.

 

[TMHeimer]

Not doing the alternate air ascent was a violation as well as going deeper than 60 feet. However, even though I feel that each diver should have their own timing device, PADI standards do not require it for OW students.

I'm very remiss. I always thought it was obviously required that each student have a timing device, computer--watch, whatever. But when I think of classes before we used computers at the shop I do recall no one had a watch. I guess with computers being taught now it is covered. But you can still teach a class on tables--do they need to have a watch then? Students would need some timing device to more accurately plan the new required mini dive, no?

 

[flots am]

I recently did the OW course as a referral. The Theory / pool portion through the LDS, and the checkout dives on vacation in Central America. The first part was very good, and meticulously done. At the time, the checkout dives just felt sloppy, but it seems like some PADI standards were violated, and I'm curious where on the scale of seriousness this ranks.

On the scale of "petting a fluffy bunny" to "reaching into a running wood chipper to grab back your favorite pen", it's about even with "crossing a busy street when the crosswalk says it's OK".

Your instructor violated a few rules, but nothing that was fatal or even significantly dangerous. The worst thing that happened was that you got cheated out of trying a few skills in Open Water. This is something you can fix by practicing with your buddy.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

The biggest problem will be in getting your C-Card. If all your paperwork is "lost", I'd suggest asking for a refund, then find another shop to do it over with.

flots.

 

[WheelsUSN]

I'm very remiss. I always thought it was obviously required that each student have a timing device, computer--watch, whatever. But when I think of classes before we used computers at the shop I do recall no one had a watch. I guess with computers being taught now it is covered. But you can still teach a class on tables--do they need to have a watch then? Students would need some timing device to more accurately plan the new required mini dive, no?

There is still nothing in the standards that requires the students to have a timer, even if diving tables. The instructor or certified assistant diving with the students is required to have a computer or timing device but the students are not. A computer or timing device is required for adventure diver/AOW students.

 

[fiziks]

Kafkaland,

I remember when i was just an open water diver (so long ago). Diving in the murky waters of Minnesota, I wasn't too thrilled with the prospect of diving down to 60 feet. then I took my AOW and we did 90ft in an open pit mine north of Brainerd. 60ft didn't seem so bad anymore. But what really prepared gave me confidence was taking my Rescue course. Continuing your education with Nitrox, Dry Suit and AOW will help ensure a long and safe diving career, and I would strongly encourage you to sign up for your LDS's Rescue course when they next have one.

I don't think I need to beat a dead horse on the QA thing, but I agree that you did the right thing and, in my experience, PADI will take corrective action.